[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

Scoring: IMP

---

South dealt and it was passed to North. North opened 1♠ and East overcalled 2♥.

Pass, pass, back to North again. North now bids 2♠.

Pass, pass, and now West raises to 3♥.

Pass, pass, and now South doubles. West passes.

North now bids 3♠, ending the auction.

NB - North made 3♠ when he guessed the spades correctly, and East failed to lead ♦ when he gained the lead with the Ace of trumps.

[cherdano]

West's pass over 2♥ is weird. I wouldn't have doubled 3♥ as South.

[hrothgar]

Hmm

Both South and West strike me as rather timid.

Lets start with West. Some folks would open the West hand. (Not me, mind you, but some would). I find it incomprehensible that anyone with a pulse would pass East's 2♥ overcall. Reasonable people might differ about the best choice of bids (I'd expect to see support for 2♠, 2N, 3♦, and 3♥). However, pass strikes me as way too conservative.

In a similar vein, I think that some people would strain to find some kind of call with the South hand after partner's vulnerable 1♠ opening in 3rd seat.

[ArtK78]

West's pass after his partner's 2H overcall is AWFUL! Axx of trump and Axxxx of diamonds is MORE than enough to raise, even without the assorted trash in the black suits. A cue bid as a game try is not out of the question.

I have seen people open the bidding on hands like these (not that I am suggesting that it would be right to do so).

4H should be beaten, but if West acts over 2H they may buy the hand for 3H.

I don't have any real problems with the actions by North and South. South has no good call over 2H, nor does he have a good call over 2S. He cannot pass out 3H, and double seems like the right call.

[jtfanclub]

ralph23, on Jul 31 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

South dealt and it was passed to North. North opened 1♠ and East overcalled 2♥.

Pass, pass, back to North again. North now bids 2♠.

Pass, pass, and now West raises to 3♥.

Pass, pass, and now South doubles.

Huh. I'm used to X being very penalty, though it's an odd case for it (balancing hand, going to be on lead) but it would fit a 10 count with a spade singleton.

I would manufacture a 2♠ call with some partnerships with the South hand the second time around. The third time around, I wouldn't conside a 3♠ bid to be manufacturing at all. Partner had better have six, and I like my offense better than my defense.

I cannot imagine passing 2♥ with the West hand. Weird.

[FrancesHinden]

Ummm.... where to start?

South's first pass: impeccable
West's first pass: also impeccable (unless playing a mini NT opening or a strong club/diamond system)
North's 1S opener: Fine. I would also be happy with a 2S opening in third seat.
East's 2H overcall: Not a thing of beauty, but pass is too timid and it's the wrong hand for a jump

South's second pass: Reasonable. I don't mind a double either.
West's second pass: Now we start being rude Bizarre. Opposite one of my overcalls, closer to a 4H bid than a pass. Depending on overcall style, this is between a 2S good raise and a game force.
North's 2S bid: He must smell a rat. Any of pass, double or 2S could be right, difficult to tell.
East's Pass: fine

South's pass: I suppose he's stuck with this now
West's 3H: difficult to catch up from last round's pass
North's Pass: fine
East's pass: fine

South's double: another bizarre effort. This is a PENALTY DOUBLE. I expect hearts to be 0-5-5-3 or 0-6-5-2 round the table (which is quite consistent with the auction).
West's pass: consistent
North's 3S bid: obviously he and South were on the same wavelength, but it wouldn't occur to me to pull this.

West's final pass of 3S: well, if he hasn't bid yet, he's hardly going to start now...

Summary
-------------
West gets the timidity award
NS get the bizarre bidding award

p.s. 4H looks cold to me (albeing not a very good contract), how are you planning to beat it?

[ArtK78]

South's double would have been a penalty double if EAST had bid 3H, since the bidding is consistent with South holding a heart stack (which is the only reason for a passed hand to have a penalty double) and he was hoping that North would reopen with a double, not a 2S call.

However, after West bids 3H, South can no longer have a heart stack, and his double is not for penalties. It is what a friend of mine calls a "Bridge Double," and says "we are not defending 3H undoubled - do something intelligent." In other words, South has values at least equal to and probably better than one would expect on this auction, and no obvious call.

South could have a good 4 card holding in hearts, but a trap pass over 2H is inconsistent with the auction. I suppose once in a blue moon the opps have overbid with a 5-2 fit and South actually has a trap pass over 2H, but I would not structure my bidding to cater to that possibility.

So, South's double is not a penalty double, although that does not mean that it would be impossible to wind up in 3Hx. It all depends on the defensive vs. offensive aspects of North's hand.

It appears that 4H is cold - very luckily - in that declarer can win a black suit trick eventually, establish the diamond suit with one ruff, and then pull trump ending in dummy. Not only are the diamonds 3-3 and the heart K onside, but the heart spots allow declarer to win the third round of hearts in the dummy to run the diamonds. Declarer gets a spade, 6 hearts and 4 diamonds - making 11 tricks! When I looked at this hand earlier (very superficially) I thought that the defense could tap the dummy. But the defense never gains the lead once East wins a black suit trick.

[cherdano]

ArtK78, on Jul 31 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

South's double would have been a penalty double if EAST had bid 3H, since the bidding is consistent with South holding a heart stack (which is the only reason for a passed hand to have a penalty double) and he was hoping that North would reopen with a double, not a 2S call.

However, after West bids 3H, South can no longer have a heart stack, and his double is not for penalties. It is what a friend of mine calls a "Bridge Double," and says "we are not defending 3H undoubled - do something intelligent." In other words, South has values at least equal to and probably better than one would expect on this auction, and no obvious call.

So, South's double is not a penalty double, although that does not mean that it would be impossible to wind up in 3Hx. It all depends on the defensive vs. offensive aspects of North's hand.

Of course he can have a trump stack double, if opponents are in an 8-card fit and he has 5 hearts. OTOH, how can he have a "do s.th. intelligent double" if he couldn't make a negative double over 2H, and can't raise 2S to 3S? Partner's 2S didn't promise extra strength beyond having a decent 6-card suit.

[ArtK78]

cherdano, on Jul 31 2007, 02:39 PM, said:

Of course he can have a trump stack double, if opponents are in an 8-card fit and he has 5 hearts. OTOH, how can he have a "do s.th. intelligent double" if he couldn't make a negative double over 2H, and can't raise 2S to 3S? Partner's 2S didn't promise extra strength beyond having a decent 6-card suit.

South probably does not have enough to act over 3H on this particular hand, but if he had a little more - say, Qx of spades instead of 9x of spades - he would have his double, and he would not have the right hand to act at any prior turn in the auction. And it is not a penalty double.

Quite frankly, however, a 3S bid by South would probably make more sense than a double.

The chances of South having a trump stack penalty double on this auction are too remote to make this a penalty double.

[cherdano]

ArtK78, on Jul 31 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

cherdano, on Jul 31 2007, 02:39 PM, said:

Of course he can have a trump stack double, if opponents are in an 8-card fit and he has 5 hearts. OTOH, how can he have a "do s.th. intelligent double" if he couldn't make a negative double over 2H, and can't raise 2S to 3S? Partner's 2S didn't promise extra strength beyond having a decent 6-card suit.

South probably does not have enough to act over 3H on this particular hand, but if he had a little more - say, Qx of spades instead of 9x of spades - he would have his double, and he would not have the right hand to act at any prior turn in the auction. And it is not a penalty double.

The chances of South having a trump stack penalty double on this auction are too remote to play for.

With the queen of spades I would double 2H, and raise 2S to 3S if I had passed.

[ArtK78]

Sorry - I was editing my post - you quoted me in mid-edit.

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

I was North on this hand and also was a bit puzzled by South's double, although I reasoned, like Art, that this was too unlikely on the auction to be based on good trumps... so I pulled it.

It was also interesting that after getting in with the Ace of trump at trick four (tricks one and two = ♥, I ruff; cross to dummy via King of ♣ at t3; and 9♠ back, low from hand) on four), that East did not lead the King of ♦ which will of course set the contract.

But maybe East could not believe that his partner had the Ace of diamonds on the auction... West having already played the other red Ace on trick one. Another example of how misbidding your hand traps you.

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Jul 31 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

Both South and West strike me as rather timid.

Making a penalty double with Kxx of trumps is timid?

I agree with those who think this is a penalty double. Why can't the hearts be 5431 with south having four?

[lowerline]

ralph23, on Jul 31 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

♣♦♥♠

Scoring: IMP

---

South dealt and it was passed to North. North opened 1♠ and East overcalled 2♥.

Pass, pass, back to North again. North now bids 2♠.

Pass, pass, and now West raises to 3♥.

Pass, pass, and now South doubles. West passes.

North now bids 3♠, ending the auction.

NB - North made 3♠ when he guessed the spades correctly, and East failed to lead ♦ when he gained the lead with the Ace of trumps.

p-p-1♠-2♥-p
So far this still makes sense, but West's pass has to be a misclick for sure! The discussion should be whether West should bid 3♥ or 2♠...

p-p-1♠-2♥-p-p-2♠-p-p-3♥-p-p-dbl
That double sounds like penalty to me. Obviously North knows his partner...

I suppose +140 won some imps for NS?

Steven

[ralph23]

lowerline, on Aug 1 2007, 03:48 AM, said:

That double sounds like penalty to me. Obviously North knows his partner...

I suppose +140 won some imps for NS?

Steven

Yes and yes.

[FrancesHinden]

ArtK78, on Jul 31 2007, 11:12 PM, said:

The chances of South having a trump stack penalty double on this auction are too remote to make this a penalty double.

I'm sorry, but this isn't quite true.

This is a penalty double by default: when you pass over an overcall and later double the same suit, that is a penalty double by definition. Now, of course you can agree to define the double as something else if you wish. However I believe it is also correct that it is a penalty double by agreement.There are two reasons to play this as a penalty double, and you need both of them to be valid:

i) It is quite possible for you to have a penalty double. Look at other hands on this forum: 5-card overcalls at the 2-level are very common. A delayed raise may be only a doubleton (particularly if West thinks double of 2S is penalty). There is no reason the 2S reopening cannot have a heart void. South could have six of the things, never mind only five of them...and there is certainly no reason that the opponents can't be in a 9-card fit missing KQJ10 of trumps.

It is negotiable quite how 'penalties' this penalty double should be: whether it is a real trump stack, or a singleton/void spade and some honours in hearts. But either way it is not expecting opener to pull on a down-the-middle hand for the actions to date.

ii) I can see little need to use such a late double to mean anything else. Opener has shown a spade single-suiter unwilling to defend 2Hx opposite a penalty double. Responder has denied the values to act over a 2H overcall. With a doubleton spade he would raise spades. Why would he want to get involved in this auction with a singleton spade?