[twcho]

Simple auction, u are in 4th position, bidding went:
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - ?

Opp is playing natural system. What is the meaning of the following bid if undiscussed:
1NT
2♣
2♥
2NT

[hrothgar]

Here's what I would assume with a pickup partner

1NT = a strong balanced hand (A very good 15 to a bad 18)
2♣ = Natural, Clubs
2♥ = Natural, Hearts
2NT = 5-5 with Spades and Diamonds. High ODR

(For what its worth, I don't expect much controversy about the meaning of 1N, 2♥, or 2NT. I've seen a bit more disagreement regarding what the 2♣ bid shows)

[kenrexford]

hrothgar, on Jul 31 2007, 07:25 AM, said:

Here's what I would assume with a pickup partner

1NT = a strong balanced hand (A very good 15 to a bad 18)
2♣ = Natural, Clubs
2♥ = Natural, Hearts
2NT = 5-5 with Spades and Diamonds. High ODR

(For what its worth, I don't expect much controversy about the meaning of 1N, 2♥, or 2NT. I've seen a bit more disagreement regarding what the 2♣ bid shows)

I would also assume this, from a theory point of view.

However, I also would suspect that many would expect:

1NT = spade diamond two suiter
2C = spade diamond two suiter
2H = spade diamond two suiter
2NT = spade diamond two suiter

Of course, these folks frighten me.

[helene_t]

1NT: Some play it as a two-suiter with emphazis on ♦, but "standard" is natural
2♣: Not sure what "standard" is. I would assume natural with a p/u pd.
2♥: Standard is natural. It may seem odd to play 2♥ (RHO promised 4) as natural while 2♣ (LHO promised 3) as artificial but the idea is that you'd rather have the long enemy trumps to the right than to the left.
2N: This is certainly a two-suiter.

[pbleighton]

Quote

However, I also would suspect that many would expect:

1NT = spade diamond two suiter
2C = spade diamond two suiter
2H = spade diamond two suiter
2NT = spade diamond two suiter

Of course, these folks frighten me.

You expect four bids to be reserved for one hand type?
FWIW, I've been playing sandwich NT (1NT = 4-4 or 5-4, 2NT = 5-5) for a year now, and love it, but I would NEVER expect it without prior agreement.

Peter

[helene_t]

pbleighton, on Jul 31 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

You expect four bids to be reserved for one hand type?

Five. Dbl means the same of course.

[david_c]

2NT: Definitely a two-suiter. Undiscussed this should be spades and diamonds, but it wouldn't completely surprise me if a non-expert pick-up partner intended it to show the minors. (There might be experts who like to play it as minors as well, but they would know it is non-standard and not do it unless discussed.)

1NT: The default is natural. Playing with someone from England I would be completely confident about this. Playing with a random person on BBO, particularly if they are from North America, I might worry that they believe it shows a two-suiter since it seems this is a popular treatment in some places.

2♣/2♥: If playing with someone from these forums, I would expect these to be natural. Otherwise I would not make either of these bids if undiscussed. I think that most people where I come from have never heard of the possibility of these bids being natural, and would assume they showed some sort of two-suiter. If partner sprung it on me I would look at my hand to try and work out what was meant.

[gwnn]

pbleighton, on Jul 31 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

You expect four bids to be reserved for one hand type?

He didn't say that. He said that he thought there were people who would expect all 4 to be ♠+♦.

BTW 2♣ as natural doesnt make much sense because you're under the enemy trumps. Maybe it makes sense after 1♣=2+.

[jtfanclub]

gwnn, on Jul 31 2007, 08:50 AM, said:

BTW 2♣ as natural doesnt make much sense because you're under the enemy trumps. Maybe it makes sense after 1♣=2+.

Never understood that logic. If opener tends to bid 1 club with 3-3 and one diamond with 4-4, he has about the same number of expected clubs after a 1 club opener as a 1NT opener. Why can't you have long clubs, or want a club lead if they end up in 3NT?

[lowerline]

hrothgar, on Jul 31 2007, 07:25 AM, said:

Here's what I would assume with a pickup partner

1NT = a strong balanced hand (A very good 15 to a bad 18)
2♣ = Natural, Clubs
2♥ = Natural, Hearts
2NT = 5-5 with Spades and Diamonds. High ODR

(For what its worth, I don't expect much controversy about the meaning of 1N, 2♥, or 2NT. I've seen a bit more disagreement regarding what the 2♣ bid shows)

Yes, I disagree with 2♣. I expect it to be a ♦♠-twosuiter, but weaker than 2NT (usually 4♠5♦).

Steven

[helene_t]

I think you need some kind of ♦-oriented two-suited bid below 2♦. Either 1N or 2♣. AFAIAC you can use both to show two-suiters: 1N ♦-oriented, 2♣ ♠-oriented and dbl with 4-4 and more defensive values.

[ralph23]

hrothgar, on Jul 31 2007, 07:25 AM, said:

Here's what I would assume with a pickup partner

1NT = a strong balanced hand (A very good 15 to a bad 18)
2♣ = Natural, Clubs
2♥ = Natural, Hearts
2NT = 5-5 with Spades and Diamonds. High ODR

(For what its worth, I don't expect much controversy about the meaning of 1N, 2♥, or 2NT. I've seen a bit more disagreement regarding what the 2♣ bid shows)

I agree, and would just note that if the 1NT bidder is a passed hand (not the example shown I think), then it's the unusual 1NT and has same meaning as unusual 2NT but less distributional.

This isn't even alertable in ACBL-land b/c it's obviously "unusual", unlike the true sandwich NT where NT bidder is unpassed hand and could theoretically have strong balanced hand.

[ArtK78]

Under what enemy trump? A 1♣ opening bid shows clubs? Since when? (just kidding).

Seriously, in any serious partnership without prior discussion, both 2C and 2H are natural. In fact, anytime the bidding goes (1X)-P-(1Y)-?, where X and Y are suit bids, both 2X and 2Y are natural.

Without prior agreement, 1NT is a strong balanced hand. However, many partnerships play Sandwich NT, in which case it shows the unbid suits without much defensive strength, with double being reserved for a hand with the unbid suits with defensive strength or a strong balanced hand.

By the way, if the auction goes 1X-(P)-1Y and you have a strong balanced hand, you should probably stay out of the auction. The odds are that you do not have a game, and by advertising a strong balanced hand you will (1) cause the opps to slow down and not get too high; (2) tell them how to play the hand; or (3) allow them to double you out.

2NT is always distributional for the unbid suits.

[gwnn]

What's a "serious partnership without prior discussion"?

The question is: do we need 2 bids (2♣, 2NT) for some sort of pointed hands or is one enough and we need to show clubs more often/more urgently. It's not just a question of "is there a hand that could need to show clubs naturally". For example, there is no bid available for 7033's lacking the queen of spades but having no other loser, yet nobody seems to have the desire of introducing 3♠ to specific ♠Q ask.

[jtfanclub]

gwnn, on Jul 31 2007, 09:54 AM, said:

For example, there is no bid available for 7033's lacking the queen of spades but having no other loser, yet nobody seems to have the desire of introducing 3♠ to specific ♠Q ask.

On the other hand, if you don't have any bid short of the 5 level to show spades, people might consider that a hole in your system.

It's not two bids. X and 2NT mean the pointy suits by virtually everybody. The question is how many additional bids do you need to show the pointy suits?

[ArtK78]

gwnn, on Jul 31 2007, 09:54 AM, said:

What's a "serious partnership without prior discussion"?

Perhaps I should have worded it differently. What I meant was a partnership consisting of two experienced players who have not specifically discussed the meaning of an overcall of a suit previously bid by the opponents in this type of auction.

[A2003]

Opp is playing natural system.
The meaning of the following bid if undiscussed:
1NT Natural 15-17 with ♣ and ♥ stopped
2♣ Michaels for majors
2♥ Natural ♥ suit
2NT Extreme distribution ♦ and ♠

[skjaeran]

1NT=15-18 balanced
2♣=two unbid suits
2♥=natural
2NT=two unbid suits, more distributional