[jillybean]

Here are 2 hands where my p XX

Hand1

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ K632 ♥ A3 ♦ T83 ♣ A643

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♣
 Dbl   RDbl  Pass  ?
  

Hand2

Dealer: West Vul: All Scoring: IMP

♠ AKT ♥ 976 ♦ AQJ86 ♣ J2

West North East South

 Pass  Pass  1♠    1NT
 Dbl   RDbl  pass ?

Hand1 I don't know if I should bid or pass.
I think Hand2 is a SOS, partner does not want to play 1ntx and is asking me for a suit.

[bid_em_up]

Hand 1 is not SOS. Most people treat it as showing 10+ hcp, with or without fit. Pass and see what develops.

Hand 2, XX is SOS, in a manner of speaking. It is almost impossible that partner believes that you can make 1N xx'd (opening hand on your right, double for penalty on your left, along with your hand leaves very little values for him).

The problem is, XX in this position is used by a lot of people to force 2C. This way you can escape into 2C to play. So whether or not you should bid 2D is questionable.

[FrancesHinden]

Hand 1, partner's redouble shows 10+ HCP and an interest in defending. You would usually not pull it.

However, if RHO's pass shows a desire to play in 1Cxx you might choose to bid. But 99% of people play pass in RHO's position as 'neutral' - expecting partner to bid over the redouble. To the extent that a penalty pass by RHO here would be alertable in England (I think).

The second hand is very dangerous. I play redouble as natural, showing a desire to play in 1NTxx. I would assume that any decent player from England would mean it the same unless discussed otherwise. Bid_em_up's reply indicates that is a dangerous assumption to make, as to him it's obvious it is some sort of escape mechanism.

If you have discussed the meaning of a 1NT opening, X, XX with partner then it is probably safe to assume the same applies to this auction.

[helene_t]

A rdbl of a t/o dbl in direct seat is not SOS - redoubler has no reason to think the dbl will be converted, so running from 1♣X is a non-issue. East now makes a forcing pass. It suggests he has no fit so you probably don't have a fit either. Just pass, W will bid something.

Hand 2 is tricky. You may have agreed some kind of escape after a penalty dbl on 1NT but even if you have, does it also apply here? Without agreement I would assume it to be business but it is best to play it as two places to play, or some such. My prefered method is (I think):
rdbl: minor one-suiter, forces overcaller to bid 2♣.
2♣: clubs and a red suit.
2♦: red suits.

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

Hand 1 is not SOS. XX says 10+ points and in our methods, no major suit worth mentioning (partner will with this point count and a 4 card major almost always (90%) bid the major). The 4th hand is broke and has no long suit. "Pass" just says "I have no preference for the unbid suits, you're on your own" .

Unless you have a great suit that you opened, pass and await developments.

Look at hand 2 logically.

Opener has (say) 13.
1NT bidder has (give him a min) 15.
Doubler has at least 9. Give him a min too.
13 + 15 + 9 = 37

Can partner of NT bidder seriously be wanting to play 1NT XX ?

We play weak NT openings, and get penalty-doubled sometimes, so we have a method that we use on any NT hand...

XX by NT bidder's partner is artificial and asks NT bidder to bid 2♣.
Pass by NT bidder's partner asks NT bidder to redouble, and this will start a run-out sequence.

Whatever you play, don't leave in the redouble.

[goobers]

ralph23, on Jul 25 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

Whatever you play, don't leave in the redouble.

Well, unless you play redouble as to play.

[bid_em_up]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

I play redouble as natural, showing a desire to play in 1NTxx. I would assume that any decent player from England would mean it the same unless discussed otherwise.

Can you explain the merits or logic behind your playing it this way?

Assuming the opponents are competent, it is practically impossible (I think) for partner to hold any hand where he can actually expect to make 1N xx'd.

So enlighten me on why you would choose to play it this way. I'm always willing to listen.

[ralph23]

goobers, on Jul 25 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

ralph23, on Jul 25 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

Whatever you play, don't leave in the redouble.

Well, unless you play redouble as to play.

I just can't imagine that this is possible, unless we have a 60 point deck.

Maybe it is possible, and my imagination just isn't what it should be.

Presumably in this example, you and partner have no agreement about XX, hence the question. I'm just saying (1) in the absence of agreement, pull it; and (2) how could you have the agreement that XX is to play anyway, on this auction ... I just don't understand how the redoubler can possibly have the hand for it?

[FrancesHinden]

bid_em_up, on Jul 25 2007, 06:09 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

I play redouble as natural, showing a desire to play in 1NTxx.  I would assume that any decent player from England would mean it the same unless discussed otherwise.

Can you explain the merits or logic behind your playing it this way?

Assuming the opponents are competent, it is practically impossible (I think) for partner to hold any hand where he can actually expect to make 1N xx'd.

So enlighten me on why you would choose to play it this way. I'm always willing to listen.

1. The logic
-------------
If you have not made a specific agreement otherwise, the default assumption is that bids and calls do not have a conventional meaning. So without any agreement, redouble is to play, 2C, 2D, 2H, and 2S are natural.

Second, I don't see the need to play redouble as artificial. If, as partner of the 1NT overcaller, I have a long suit I can bid it. If I don't have a long suit, I pass. The overcaller has not promised as balanced a hand as a 1NT opener, and may have his own suit to run to. If you subscribe to the theory that partner cannot have a hand expecting to make 1NT, then overcaller can redouble himself if he doesn't have a long suit to run to and you are no worse off.

Thus, another piece of logic: there is no need for responder to play redouble as 'for rescue' therefore it is natural.

Logic and merit are indeed different animals.

2. The merit
---------------
I've had the auction 1suit 1NT x xx a number of times. It has not yet ever ended the auction, because someone does not have their call. But it smokes out who is rather light for their actions.

The usual layout is that opener is very light and distributional, the 1NT overcaller has a decent 14-count or so with a long minor, the doubler is also a little light. with an honour in partner's suit. More like 9-14-8-9 round the table.

Alternatively, after a 1st or 3rd NV opener, opener might have psyched. If you don't tell the 1NT overcaller that your side has the majority of the points, you miss out on the ability to make a forcing pass.

Now, you may say it's a waste of a call to use redouble as a psyche-revealing bid, but as I explained above I don't see the need to use it as artificial.

The most amusing instance of this auction was against the Hackett twins once:

1S 1NT x xx
2C* 2D** 2S 3NT
P P x all pass

*alerted as 'not only a light opener but may have longer clubs than spades'
** asystemic. Overcaller was supposed to pass or double. He was also a little light.

3NTx would have made on a club lead.
On a spade lead one off was a good save against their making 4S contract.

[ralph23]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2007, 12:56 PM, said:

Alternatively, after a 1st or 3rd NV opener, opener might have psyched. If you don't tell the 1NT overcaller that your side has the majority of the points, you miss out on the ability to make a forcing pass.

It doesn't even have to be a psyche if it's a third seat opening of 1♠ (as in the example). We play Drury and would often open with 8 HCP NV in third seat on a decent 4-card ♠ suit, especially if opps are vul when we aren't.

We play responder must have 9+ to XX, so here's the New Math:

Opener: 8
Overcaller: 15
Responder: 9
Advancer: 8

So our side could have 23! Glory be! Which makes 1NT xx a nice proposition.

The real downside for me in playing XX as natural here, is that we play "Systems On" in our weak NT opening after a penalty double on the NT opener's left, so 2♣ is Stayman, transfers are on etc. etc. etc.

So on that assumption, we must play XX as artificial there, relaying NT opener to 2♣ which responder will either pass or correct. (Pass by responder over the X instructs opener to XX, after which responder starts a runout sequence and we look for a place to hide ).


And I do hate it when we play XX to have different meanings in different contexts. But that's a psychological rather than a technical issue.

[kenrexford]

Opener can have a first-seat 9-count, if he has 6-4 pattern. If you doubt this, check other posts today.

So, it is very possible for Advancer to have 6-7 points.

That being said, I play this XX as a transfer to a minor. Opener is expected to bid 2♣, but he may of course rebid 2♦ with real diamonds.

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2007, 12:56 PM, said:

1. The logic

Here's my logic, such as it is...

either Pass or XX should mean "I'm willing to play 1NT doubled/redoubled".

I don't think the points are a big difference...1NTX= is a great board, 1NTXX= is a great board.

So to me, the big difference is that after a pass, the next player is under huge pressure. Meanwhile, after an XX he can bid now or wait for partner to balance or pass. So if your LHO has a hand that would like to leave in the X if her partner had a good X, and would like to pull if partner had a bad X, she is in the hot seat if you pass and can pass safely if you redouble.

I used to play XX as 'willing to play', Pass as 'run!'. But the extra pressure convinced me to switch the two.

[helene_t]

Note that after a t/o double has been converted, xx becomes s.o.s.
1♣-x-p-p
xx

and

1♣-p-p-x
p-p-xx

are both s.o.s.

As for the 1NT-overcall thing, what Frances says makes a lot of sense. With 5-4 it is not clear whether showing a two-suiter is better than just bidding your 5-card. 5-5 is not that common. You might as well sacrifice it for the natural meaning of xx.

As for switching pass and the s.o.s. redouble: that's unplayable because you need pass in the natural meaning: "I'm afraid we have nowhere to run, good luck partner". You can play it when it is obvious that there is a place to run to, though. For example if opps double a jacoby transfer you can play rdbl=length in the bid suit, pass=wants responder to declare in the transfered-to suit.

[barmar]

OK, so 1NT is going to make. Why do you want to tell the opponents by redoubling? They'll run somewhere, so you won't get to play it. Unless you're sure you can set them several in whatever they run to, there's little point in redoubling. Pass and make your 1NT. Or if the 1NT bidder has a 5-card suit, he can bid it and you'll probably make