[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    2♣    3♣
 Pass  3♠    Pass  Pass
 Pass  


Who do you think is to blame and does anyone play 4♣ splinter here?

[hotShot]

I would think that 3♣ from south is game forcing, an even if it's only forcing one round, north should show his 4card♥ suit.

[goobers]

3C is not GF, but South has to move onto game.

Sure, North could show the hearts, but no matter what happens, they should reach game.

[BillHiggin]

South is too strong to settle for less than game.
4♣ would be a splinter in many partnerships.

[inquiry]

BillHiggin, on Jul 25 2007, 01:47 AM, said:

South is too strong to settle for less than game.
4♣ would be a splinter in many partnerships.

Ditto

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

First, I assume I you meant, you missed
another slam. But first priority would be
to reach game.
Second: Slam is just 50%, so staying out
of slam is not the worst crime.
Third: 4C is a splinter and better than 3C,
but South should insist on game, i.e. passing
3S is not an option.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(Added Later)
PS: Te estimation fo making 6H is just
wrong, ... but it just shows how bad I am
at those thinsg

[helene_t]

North doesn't have do show ♥. S would have doubled if she was interested in a 4-card ♥. The cuebid shows ♠, or maybe some awkward strong hand in some partnerships.

3♠ by N is not terrible but LTC suggests a stronger bid, especially if you open light. Still with a small doubleton in opps suit there is reason to be cautios.

S has to force to game, she has 6 1/2 lost trick and the concentraion of values, the 9th trump and the singleton in the enemy suit makes the hand even stronger than LTC suggests.

4♣ is clearly a splinter, what else could it be?

[SoTired]

South has a 4C splinter in my book. North's pass is cautious, but reasonable.

South with 11 + singleton is a game force. Especially with singleton in opps suit. Especially with 4-card support.

100% blame to South.

[david_c]

IMO both players got this wrong - they both have enough for game on this auction - but South's mistake is much worse than North's.

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 25 2007, 12:29 AM, said:

First, I assume I you meant, you missed
another slam.

No, just another plain old game
I wasn't sure if 4♣ is used as a splinter here, this is the first time I can remember wanting to splinter in opps suit.

[pbleighton]

Quote

IMO both players got this wrong - they both have enough for game on this auction - but South's mistake is much worse than North's.

I agree that they both got it wrong, but I put the blame on them equally: both clearly have GF hands. 4C was the correct response.

Peter

[ralph23]

North was cautious, but 3♠ is a reasonable choice. He has bad minor suits, a semi-balanced hand and 7 LTC with 13 HCP. Construct worse hands that South could have on this auction (even including only 3 trumps) and you see North is torn with a tough decision. Remember, South is under pressure after the overcall, and may have cue bid on a bare limit raise, without much to write home about.... North has to take all that into consideration.

South on the other hand really blew it. He has a great hand with all these points, 4♠ to the Queen and a stiff ♣. South must bid 4♠. I agree with SoTired, 100% of blame to South.

And he should have bid 4♣ the first time! He "allowed" partner to make a bad choice, and then didn't correct it ! {NB North is "entitled" to believe he has 2 ♣ losers also, because of South's failure to bid 4♣}

I can't assign any blame to North, when South could have taken away North's chance to make a "bad" bid of 3♠ in the first place by correctly bidding 4♣. Your partner may make a "mistake" if you let him. If possible, don't let him. Try to make it easy for partner.

[jdonn]

Both players were worth a game force on the given auction.

[bid_em_up]

inquiry, on Jul 25 2007, 02:06 AM, said:

BillHiggin, on Jul 25 2007, 01:47 AM, said:

South is too strong to settle for less than game.
4♣ would be a splinter in many partnerships.

Ditto

Ditto.

South gets 100% here.

Regardless of what North did, South has 2nd round club control, the AKQ♦ along with his 4 trump. North did not bid 3N, so there should be no wasted values in clubs. Where is his opening hand? 4S (or some further action) should be clear cut at this point.

[Mr. Dodgy]

4♣ is a splinter. I don't think this hand is quite good enough for it, but I'd try 4♣ now if partner had bid ♥s, just 4♠ now.

[jillybean]

Undiscussed surely 4♣ could be a splinter or a fit jump?

Or something else!

[helene_t]

jillybean2, on Jul 26 2007, 04:34 PM, said:

Undiscussed surely 4♣ could be a splinter or a fit jump?

No, a fit jump is aimed at locating fitting honours. You cannot have fitting honours in clubs now RHO showed a good club suit.

[neilkaz]

This is a good hand for the B/I forum as it concerns hand evaluation and a couple of basic conventions, Q=LROB and splinters.

First of all, N has a good hand with a very fine 5 card ♠, a decent 4 card holding in ♥, 13 HCP and two doubletons. Hands with their high cards in long suits have more offensive potentential that do hands with high cards in short suits. K&R hand evaluator evaluates N's fine hand as worth 15.75 pts.

Lets assume there had been no overcall and N had heard S give a straightforward 4 card limit raise. It is very clear than N should bid onto game. I play Bergen so I could bid 3♥ after a Bergen 3♦ as a generic game try asking PD if he to go to game with a decent limit raise, but to bid 3♠ with a minimum limit raise, but opener's hand is good enough to insist on game opposite even a min LR so I'd just bid 4♠.

Therefore, N should not show a bare minimum opening by bidding 3♠ here after the Q=LROB. N could bid 3♥ which is either a game try or an advance Q bid in case responder has the OB (or better than a limit raise hand) and some slam interest. Or N could just bid 4♠ giving no info to the opps and not risking getting PD too excited.

So 25% blame to N for indicating a BARE min opening with 3♠ rather than forcing to game or just bidding it.

Lets now look at S's bidding and assume there was no overcall. S has 4 card support, 11 HCP, a stiff and a ♦ suit that often produces 4 tricks. This has to be 14 support points and is certainly GF to me. Playing splinters, S should splinter unless playing that splinters show more than a basic GF. If not playing splinters, S should force to game with J2N or what ever the partnership plays, again assuming there was no overcall. After the overcall S has to bid, as he did at the table, 3♣, but he needs to show that he has more than a limit raise by carrying onto game !

Even though N showed a bare min by failing to make even a mild game try, S has enough that game should be favorable opposite the worst junk N could drum up for a 1♠ opening. I'd honestly open S's hand 1♦ and K&R evaluates it as worth 12.55 pts.

75% of the blame to S for failing to make the obvious raise of 3♠ to 4♠.

[ralph23]

neilkaz, on Jul 26 2007, 11:35 AM, said:

If not playing splinters, S should force to game with J2N or what ever the partnership plays.

I am pretty sure that Jac 2NT is OFF after an overcall in standard ameican, and that the only recourse open to South then (assuming they don't play splinters) is the 3♣ cue bid = limit+ raise for partner.

[neilkaz]

ralph23, on Jul 26 2007, 11:44 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Jul 26 2007, 11:35 AM, said:

If not playing splinters, S should force to game with J2N or what ever the partnership plays.

I am pretty sure that Jac 2NT is OFF after an overcall in standard ameican, and that the only recourse open to South then (assuming they don't play splinters) is the 3♣ cue bid = limit+ raise for partner.

Yes, off course, and I made mention of J2N (an awful convention unless one uses something better than the normal archaic rebid structure) assuming there had been no overcall. I will edit that sentance to make what I try to say more clear

Anyhow, the overcall doesn't change my strong feelings that N has a clear acceptance of a limit raise and S has a clear GF whether or not there had been an overcall.

While on the subject of J2N, can someone link us to a better and more modern and reasonably simple response structure ? I've seen a few but can't find them. Better Bidding w/Bergen has one method, but it is very complicated.

thx .. neilkaz ..