[helene_t]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     2♣    Pass
 2♥    Pass  3♣    Pass
 Pass  Pass  

[jillybean]

What is 2♣ here?

[pclayton]

I have no idea what the continuations are after a WJ 2♣ opening.

If 2♣ was Precision, I would not hesitate to try 2♦, especially at MPs.

[helene_t]

jillybean2, on Jun 25 2007, 08:04 PM, said:

What is 2♣ here?

6+ clubs or 5 clubs and 4M, 10-14 points

[whereagles]

Resp could have bid that 2♦ relay... or opener might have bid 2♠ over 2♥.

Precision 2♣ openers are tricky to handle. It took me a couple years experience to improve my judgement on that.

[mike777]

helene_t, on Jun 25 2007, 01:01 PM, said:

Dealer: East Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ Q752 ♥ QT4 ♦ AK5 ♣ K43 ♠ J963 ♥ AKJ83 ♦ T87 ♣ 7 ♠ AKT4 ♥   ♦ 42 ♣ AJT9652 ♠ 8 ♥ 97652 ♦ QJ963 ♣ Q8

West  North East  South

 -     -     2♣    Pass
 2♥    Pass  3♣    Pass
 Pass  Pass  

I would have missed the 4-4 spade fit too by opening 5clubs.

[Free]

East should rebid 2♠ imo, now he's betting on 1 horse instead of 2...

[david_c]

West doesn't have anywhere near enough strength to bid 2♦.

The blame goes to East: I don't think 3♣ is a bad bid on the 7-card suit, but 2♠ is better, and on this occasion you see precisely why bidding 2♠ is a good idea.

[rbforster]

Free, on Jun 25 2007, 01:37 PM, said:

East should rebid 2♠ imo, now he's betting on 1 horse instead of 2...

I agree - pulling from a NF 2♥ by opener shows no heart tolerance. Might as well offer spades on the way to 3♣.

If the question was why you missed 2♠ opposite a slightly different responder's hand

Jxxx
AKJx
Txxx
x

now the answer would be you were just hosed by the precision 2♣ opener.

[jdonn]

West is close to 2♦ but not quite. I would certainly bid 2♦ if the choice was that or pass. As it is I can't imagine why east wouldn't bid 2♠, west doesn't have to pass it.

[Echognome]

I also believe that's why many play the 2♣ shows 6+ and many others play that 2♣ denies a 4 card major. It is just difficult to find the best part-score after a 2♣ opening that allows a lot of hand types. Of course, it makes opponent's life harder as well. The philosophy should be to find a playable partial.

Thus, if West's 2♥ is NF (and I suspect it was), then East should bid 2♠. West isn't going to try to improve the partial with only train tickets, he must feel that there is a good chance of a better spot. East can always count on West returning to 3♣ or 3♥ if he dislikes spades. The only real worry is playing in a 4-3 spade fit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

West should ask with 2D, 2H should deny 4 spades,
why risk playing in a silly heart contract, if you
have a spade fit. The only reason I see is, that
2D promises at least inv.+ values, but ...

And I agree with 3C instead of 2S, East has a 7
carder, we can talk about 2S,if East holds six clubs,
but not with the given hand.

West will pass with 3 spades and 1 club,
and I would say the 7-1 or even 7-0 fit plays
better than the 4-3 fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I dont play a strong club system.

[helene_t]

The reason why I bid 2♥ instead of 2♦ was in case opener is 6-3 in clubs/hearts. Not sure if he would normally pass 2♥ with a singleton hearts. In that case 2♦ would probably have been better. Of course if he's 4-2 in the majors we would be playing in the wrong major partscore but with 4225 he might have opened 1♣. We don't have any special agreements about this, just agreed to play WJ2005 (Gerben's FD file).

Anyway, 3♣+2 was +0.9 XIMPs, apparently some went down in 4♠.

[Echognome]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

PS: I dont play a strong club system.

Yes. This is the problem. If the only possible answers to 2♦ were 2♥, 2♠, or 2NT/3♣, then you could simply pass the response. However, most people play that 2♦ shows invitational or better values, so the responses with maximums go up to 3NT. Furthermore, if it turns out that you do have a horrible misfit on this hand, you are not going to get partner to stop below game when he has a maximum.

The only case for 2♦ is that you are gambling on being able to pass the response. I don't think it's much of an issue here when East should be bidding 2♠. When responder bids 2♥ or 2♠ he is trying to find the best part-score. He has a little something, or he would pass 2♣ and hope for the best.

[cherdano]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2007, 12:52 PM, said:

And I agree with 3C instead of 2S, East has a 7
carder, we can talk about 2S,if East holds six clubs,
but not with the given hand.

You are making the same mistake as in the other thread. Just because you have one more club than promised so far, you want to rebid clubs; here you have 4 spades more than you promised so far, and 2♠ says a lot more about your hand than 3♣.
Yes there is always a specific shape where either bid is wrong, but I think the odds are with 2♠.

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on Jun 25 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2007, 12:52 PM, said:

And I agree with 3C instead of 2S, East has a 7
carder, we can talk about 2S,if East holds six clubs,
but not with the given hand.

You are making the same mistake as in the other thread. Just because you have one more club than promised so far, you want to rebid clubs; here you have 4 spades more than you promised so far, and 2♠ says a lot more about your hand than 3♣.
Yes there is always a specific shape where either bid is wrong, but I think the odds are with 2♠.

Ok, unless I misunderstood 2C, 2C promised only 5,
i.e. I have 2 more than original promised.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2007, 11:11 AM, said:

cherdano, on Jun 25 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2007, 12:52 PM, said:

And I agree with 3C instead of 2S, East has a 7
carder, we can talk about 2S,if East holds six clubs,
but not with the given hand.

You are making the same mistake as in the other thread. Just because you have one more club than promised so far, you want to rebid clubs; here you have 4 spades more than you promised so far, and 2♠ says a lot more about your hand than 3♣.
Yes there is always a specific shape where either bid is wrong, but I think the odds are with 2♠.

Ok, unless I misunderstood 2C, 2C promised only 5,
i.e. I have 2 more than original promised.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Yes, but you have 4 more spades than additionally promised. You can always get back to clubs, but once 2♠ is passed it's an opportunity lost.

[P_Marlowe]

Echognome, on Jun 25 2007, 02:02 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

PS: I dont play a strong club system.

Yes. This is the problem. If the only possible answers to 2♦ were 2♥, 2♠, or 2NT/3♣, then you could simply pass the response. However, most people play that 2♦ shows invitational or better values, so the responses with maximums go up to 3NT. Furthermore, if it turns out that you do have a horrible misfit on this hand, you are not going to get partner to stop below game when he has a maximum.

Ok, my regular team complementaries play precision,
or at least try to do play it.
And my impression was, that responder is captain,
if there are situations, when opener can make decisions,
than I can say I understand 2H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[rbforster]

It seems clear that a 3♣ bid over 2♥ shows long clubs and no interest in other strains. Let's assume that pulling the NF 2♥ bid shows a void (since 2♥ often has 6 and would be passed in most cases with a singleton unless opener had a huge pile of clubs to fall back on). Let's also assume that a 4045 shape would be opened 1♦ rather than 2♣. This means the more likely shapes for opener's hand that would pull 2♥ are

With exactly 4 spades (presumably 5S/6C would be opened 1S in these methods)
4036
4027

Without 4+ spades
3046
2056 (is this a 2♣ or 1♦ opener?)
3037
2047

Good scrambling methods after 2♥ probably want to include what the meaning of 2N by either side (since responder has denied inv values by not bidding 2♦ initially, this probably doesn't want to be natural). It should probably say something about diamond tolerance, say 5+ by responder or 4+ by opener:

2♣-2♥-2N* no ♥ tolerance, with 6+ clubs and 4+ diamonds
2♣-2♥-2♠ no ♥ tolerance, with 6+ clubs and 4 spades
2♣-2♥-2♠-2N* no interest in spades or clubs, 5+ diamonds (correct to either minor)

some example scrambles -
4531 vs 4027 2C-2H-2S
3640 vs 4027 2C-2H-2S
2641 vs 4027 2C-2H-2S-3C
2551 vs 4027 2C-2H-2S-2N-3C
2650 vs 4036 2C-2H-2S-2N-3D
3541 vs 3046 2C-2H-2N-3D

[whereagles]

david_c, on Jun 25 2007, 06:43 PM, said:

West doesn't have anywhere near enough strength to bid 2♦.

Not completely true. One of the things I learned from experience is that you must use the 2♦ relay far more often than the book recommends.