[gwnn]

Scoring: IMP

---

1♠-p-2♠-X
p-3♥-3♠-all pass

other table played 4♥+1
this table played 3♠=

glasses of beer were thrown at one another's head.

2nt by north would be old-fashion non sophisticated "bid your better minor"

[jdonn]

Easy 4♥ by north, it's not even close. I would bid 4♥ even if I had a way to show a good 3♥ bid.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

If no one cares, continue with these bidding methods. If beer was thrown, the situation has now become very serious.

Discard the 2NT 'for better minor' convention and switch to Lebensohl here. A direct bid shows values and a weak hand bids 2NT* so partner will normally bid 3C* and partner will either pass(with clubs) or correct to another suit.

Over a 'value showing' 3H bid, you have an easy 4H raise. I suspect 'without' the use of Lebensohl, I would still raise a 3H bid. You do have a fit, a void and a fairly low number of losers.

Regards,
Robert

[kenrexford]

This was IMPs, right?

I'll blame the guy who had beer thrown at him.

Say what?

You say both had beer thrown at them?

Well, that's what I thought. Both deserved beer thrown at them.

[mikeh]

Robert, on Jun 20 2007, 05:24 PM, said:

Hi everyone

If no one cares, continue with these bidding methods. If beer was thrown, the situation has now become very serious.

Discard the 2NT 'for better minor' convention and switch to Lebensohl here. A direct bid shows values and a weak hand bids 2NT* so partner will normally bid 3C* and partner will either pass(with clubs) or correct to another suit.

Over a 'value showing' 3H bid, you have an easy 4H raise. I suspect 'without' the use of Lebensohl, I would still raise a 3H bid. You do have a fit, a void and a fairly low number of losers.

Regards,
Robert

Personally, I use lebensohl after auctions like [1♠] x [2♠] ?

After the given auction, I find that using 2N as 'grope' or 'scramble' is far more useful, altho on this hand, clearly, a lebensohl approach would have worked better than what actually happened.

However, I do not blame methods for this result... I am 100% with josh in that xxx K10xxx Kx Qxx is a game bid, red at imps.

[mike777]

Tough playing OBAR where x need not be anything this good, even vul.
Most people do not play Lebensohl in this position so I assume if we x and pard bids 3H that does not show extra.

Still I would x and rebid 4H over 3H if the opp do not show extras. tough hand.

I do not understand how north could just jump to 4H unless South's double promises a solid and opening hand or more vul which I do not think it does. I want South to compete even vul on this auction.

[cherdano]

I blame whoever threw the first beer glass.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Jun 20 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Tough playing OBAR where x need not be anything this good, even vul.
Most people do not play Lebensohl in this position so I assume if we x and pard bids 3H that does not show extra.

Still  I would x and rebid 4H over 3H if the opp do not show extras. tough hand.

I do not understand how north could just jump to 4H unless South's double promises a solid and opening hand or more vul which I do not think it does. I want South to compete even vul on this auction.

Assume partner has 1=4=4=4: he wil not be 2=3=4=4 without substantial values.

So, opposite as little as x Qxxx Axxx KJxx, you have to be in game, don't you? Vulnerable? Why should he compete when your 3♥ could be weak?

When partner shows short ♠s with genuine ♥ length, we have to aggressively upgrade a hand with xxx in ♠ and K109xx in ♥s. Even if we had a lebensohl sequence available, this is a game bid.

Heck, make it x Qxxx Axxx Kxxx, and we have a play! Not a great one, but we ain't down yet. So forget this stuff about needing a solid opening hand. While I do not usually recommend imagining hands for partner, because my experience is that I tend to either be overly-optimistic or too pessimistic, this is an exception, because we are entitled to assume 1=4=4=4: partner, when doubling 2♠, expects us to bid on that assumption, even when he doesn't hold that exact shape.

[kenrexford]

I agree 100% with the folks chastising North for not bidding 4♥. That's fairly obvious at IMPs.

That being said, I also felt that South was a tad timid. (It did make five, fairly easily, after all.)

I think it is fairly safe to assume that North has four hearts. With three hearts, and even five spades, North would have a three-card minor (with 3♥/4minor, he'd surely bid the minor). With 5332 or 5323, would you not scramble with 2NT, hoping for the right minor, and then correct if partner selects your doubleton? If partner might be 5431, he seems to have a 50-50 chance of the five-card suit being a minor (if he'd bid 2NT with 1345/1354). If you bid 2NT and partner does have a five-card suit, his five-card suit will either be hearts or the minor he bids. If he bids the "right" minor, and the opponents do not double, you are OK. If the opponents do double, you can retreat to 3♥.

So, if partner has four hearts, what does South need for game? He has a diamond loser, clubs that are in trouble, and two heart losers. The opponents have bid a simple 1♠-P-2♠. Opener passed the double, making no game try and not redoubling. I'd like to know if Responder's 2♠ was constructive, but the 10-card fit that they actually have suggests no Bergen and probably no constructive raises. So, the opponents probably have a mundane 13-ish opposite a mundane 8. With my 12, I expect partner to have something like 7-8 points himself, in HCP.

If I give partner two nice cards, maybe the club Ace and heart King, I am really close to game here. If the heart Ace is doubleton, I'll expect four hearts (three plus a ruff), three diamonds, and two clubs for starters. I see lots of chances for a tenth trick.

If he has those two specific cards, we may be causing some grief against spades, as well. Make his useful cards slow spade values, and we cause a lot of grief.

It just seems to me that South should take one more stab at this himself, doubling 3♠ as action. Had the opponents not bid 3♠, an action double would not be possible, and the problem is greater.

Of course, this is a reason to blame North, as the worst offender. But, IMO, South does not have clean hands.

[pclayton]

I hope it wasn't good beer.

South or North could take another move. They both have extras.

[neilkaz]

OK lets blindly count points.

N has 9 pts in support of ♥ without doing any upgrading for a fine 5 card suit and noting that he has no HCP wasted in the opp's suit ♠. Clearly N should take his shot at the vulnerable game now ! S most likely isn't doubling this on total trash !

S has 12 HCP and a void and that should be 17 points in support of ♥ with fine ♦. It seems obvious that N is not broke or the opps would be doing more than having responder bid 3♠ after his 2♠ bid ! Even if the opps are total fish and their bidding cannot be trusted, I'd carry on to game as S. Perhaps 3♠ is actually making.. perhaps the opps carry onto a bad beat (trumps 4-0) in 4♠x.

S's pass is nearly as wimpy as N's failure to leap to game.

Blame 60% N 40% S .. neilkaz ..

[hotShot]

South 100%

South has a 5 loser hand and needs very little from partner to bid game.
3♥ is a clear sign of life and south is much stronger than his X showed up to now.

[Codo]

hotShot, on Jun 21 2007, 04:46 PM, said:

South 100%

South has a 5 loser hand and needs very little from partner to bid game.
3♥ is a clear sign of life and south is much stronger than his X showed up to now.

North 100 % because of the reasons josh and mike gave.

South close to Zero %. A pd with xxx,xxxx,xxx,xxx will bid 3 Heart and nothing more or less. His bid was no sign of life, it was a cry for help, the weakest bid avaiable.
And yes he has 5 loosers but just one quick trick and he sees not many tricks at all.

And he allready promised a good hand with his double in 4. hand after this bidding. His chicane is nice. His diamonds are nice, but he needs a lot from pd in clubs and Hearts. So he surely has a X of 2 Spade, but his hand is much to weak to bid 4 Heart after a forced bid from pd. He may judge to bid 4 Heart because opponents seems to have less then all 28 missing HCPs, but in my mind, this is masterminding pd. My pd is there and will find the right bid. Well sometimes he will...

[Fluffy]

I blame north or lack of agreements on what a ouble of 2♠ is, prebalance is not good at IMPs.

Also opponents did very good to hide their huge fit.

[whereagles]

agree with mikeh, though I still think lebenshol > scrambling here

[gwnn]

For fairness' sake, scrambling can be combined with lebensohl (for hearts).

(....)
2M-x-p-2NT* scrambling
p-3m-p-3♥, where 3m showed doubler's cheapest 4 card suit, responder shows a weak hand with hearts.

But with this partner we had the clear agreement (which I didn't really fancy) that "we choose hearts no matter what with 4 cards".

Just to make it perfectly clear, no beer bottles were harmed during the discussion of this particular hand.

[mikestar]

I really don't like giving North all the blame for this one. In this sequence, North can't be broke, otherwise one of the opponents would bid 4♠ or whack 3♥. So game must be a decent gamble. 4♥ by North is reasonable if the double is sure to be full strength, but 4♥ is an overbid if the double might be a prebalance.

[Edmunte1]

North gets 70%, he had an easy 4♥ bid
Also South playing Lebensohl should have bid the game, so he gets 30% of blame too.