[jim420]

Scoring: IMP

W N E S
P 1♥ P 1♠
P 3♥ P ?

---

It's your bid now...

[skjaeran]

4♣ would be a cuebid agreeing ♥'s now. I can't see any reason to make this bid now. I'll just trott out RKCB to check if partner's ♥'s are solid. If they are, we're cold for 7NT. We still might make 7NT, but I'll settle for 6NT then.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3S, i.e. other.

I wonder why 3NT is in the poll but not 3S.
3S just delays it, but I still can jump to 7NT.
The mayor question is, how weak can 3H be.

The easy route would be bidding 4NT (RKCB
for hearts), intending to settle for 6NT or 7NT,
most likely the best bidding plan, but 3S it is.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

If 5NT now would be GSF, I would bid that.

If not and pard knows something about bidding, 3♠.

If none of the above: 7NT.

[FrancesHinden]

Normal GSF and RKCB are useless because they don't help you find out quite how solid partner's hearts are.

I know a pair who used to play "judgement" grand slam force which would be quite handy here: 5NT GSF opposite a hand that has pretty much promised at least 2 of the top 3 hearts is asking for solid trumps.

As it is, I'll put matters off for a round with 3S and see what develops. But I can feel that 7NT card coming sooner or later. We don't necessarily need the hearts to make 13 tricks in NT (Qx AKJxxxx Q Kxx say): in principle partner has 15+ HCP for the jump to 3H and wherever they are they'll be handy in the play.

Playing with someone I don't trust, it's more likely that partner has AKQxxx in hearts and thinks 3H is not a strong bid than he actually has his 3H call, but that's another matter.

[Fluffy]

Agree with frances, you never know where is the ♥J

I would bid 3♠ as marlowe sggest, if this gets raised, I might be happy on 7♠ rather han 7NT, if he rebids hearts then he has a likelly 12-14 count with 7 hears, we will need ♥AKQ for a grand (but no the jack)

Finally if he bids 3NT we will end up in 7NT probably, Ill try to set up a trump to use RKCW.

[jim420]

Thx for the responses first. Now let's look at the rest of the bidding...

W N E S
P 1♥ P 1♠
P 3♥ P 4NT
P 5♦ P 5NT
P 6♦ P 7NT
X P P XX
P P P

7NTXX S

4NT: (blackwood) we are definitely having a slam, so check the aces
5♦: one (of course...do you expect 2? )
5NT: now check the kings...do give me a nice 6♥ now
6♦: one (one???)
7NT: you told me you have 16+ points right, so we're most likely missing 3 points, and that's a king unfortunately, but AKQJ AKQJ AKQJ A are still 13 winners, and they're not collapsing on each other since I do have some exits, so i'm betting on 7NT now
XX: So somebody is doubling us now on Kxx? If it is ♣K, we're running ♥. If it's ♥K we finesse the ♥Q. Either way we're making it. I'm trusting my P rather than your steroid-based double, so I'm now making a steroid-based redouble! Go 7NTxx!

Precaution: do not read on if you think your heart is weak...

The full hand:

Scoring: IMP

7NTxx S
lead ♣J

---

I'm sure if i'm playing this hand 30 years later I might not survive it...
Do comment on me and my p's bidding plz...

[helene_t]

The 3♥ rebid is ok, IMHO. With an 8-card you'd rather preempt but presumably North found his hand too strong for 4♥, and 4♣ as a better preempt in hearts was not available.

I don't understand South's slam exploration. He heard the most negative answers to Blackwood he could imagine and still he gambled 7NT. Then he might as well have bid 7NT immediately.

Maybe a better tool was available. What would 5N over 3♥ have asked for? Some play it as asking if the suit is solid.

[SoTired]

all your logic seemed ok to me. congrats on making 7nxx

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I prefer a 4H rebid.
We all did know, that the 3H bid most likely belonged
to a hand, which did not look like a 3H rebid.

Bidding 3H vs. 4H is certainly a style issue, but I am
certainly more likely to open 4H than to open 1H and
to rebid 3H.

Addionally, 4NT was RKCB for hearts, in other words,
you risk going down in 7H with 6H being cold.

Give partner

-
KQJT9754
QJ6
KJ

a hand which begins to look like a 3H rebid (4H still being
and option) and 7NT / 7H is -1.
The XX is ok, but ggoing to 7 is not.

In other words going to 7NT was a whole lot worse than the
3H bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

SoTired, on Jun 18 2007, 06:33 AM, said:

all your logic seemed ok to me. congrats on making 7nxx

sry?

[SoTired]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 18 2007, 06:38 AM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 18 2007, 06:33 AM, said:

all your logic seemed ok to me. congrats on making 7nxx

sry?

I assume he finessed the heart, and with ♥Kx onside, he has about 15 tricks. If my partner makes a jump rebid and I have 21 HCP, Blackwood is a formality. Unless I play RKC and know specifically that we are missing the ♥K, I think I have to bid 7.

I would rebid 4H rather than 3H with opener's hand, but except for that, I see little wrong with anybody's bidding. Except maybe the dbler.

[cherdano]

Frances guessed right, North's hand has very little to do with a 3♥ rebid. It's the most obvious 4♥ rebid ever.

[neilkaz]

cherdano, on Jun 18 2007, 06:50 AM, said:

Frances guessed right, North's hand has very little to do with a 3♥ rebid. It's the most obvious 4♥ rebid  ever.

Agreed and after which we still get to a slam via 4NT which is also my bid, after lots of thought after 3♥.

After 3♥, 3♠ is OK, but I fear it coulds the issue when all I really need know about to be a good favorite for a grand is the AKQ in ♥ and the K in ♣.

Edit: I honestly would open this hand 4♥ (if not playing Namyats) since I don't see much future outside of ♥ and have only 1.5 defensive tricks (not expecting my Q of ♥ to help on defence when I have an 8-bagger).

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[pclayton]

I don't like a 3♥ rebid, nor a 4♥ rebid for that matter. I'd either preempt the hand or rebid 2♥.

In the original problem, the real issue is the solidity of pard's hearts. I'm not sure we can solve AKQJxx / AKQTxxx (the grand is good) versus AKQxxx / AKQTxx (not so good).

Even if I try 4♣, it doesn't solve the problem even if pard does the asking. He'll assume we have a doubleton heart + for the slam try.

3♠ is possible, and if pard won't try a new suit at the 4 level, but it leads to later complications.

[mikeh]

If unable to open some form of Namyats, I'm with Phil in that I'd rebid 2♥... altho 4♥ is a fairly close 2nd choice. 3♥ is just plain wrong..

As for the auction, over 3♥ I would have used keycard, expecting to bid 5N, which would not simply ask about Kings, but also convey the message that grand is possible... that no keycards are missing....such that a partner with AKQJxx in ♥s could bid 7.......

However, I would have to rethink after the virtually impossible 1 (or 4) keycard response. I'd have to just bid 6N now... bidding 7 is silly... and the redouble was weird as well, altho unlikely to play a significant role in the result no matter what: at mps, down 1 is a zero, making wo the redouble a top, and similarly at imps.

[FrancesHinden]

I would open 1H and rebid 4H, nicely defined in our system file as "a 4H opener with an extra card". That will get to 6H via RKCB, and miss out on the pleasure of making 7NTxx which would certainly be a new score for me!

[neilkaz]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 18 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

I would open 1H and rebid 4H, nicely defined in our system file as "a 4H opener with an extra card". That will get to 6H via RKCB, and miss out on the pleasure of making 7NTxx which would certainly be a new score for me!

Off course I am not saying that your's or my approach is right or wrong, but for me to open 1♥ and jump to 4♥ I need a slightly better hand (again I almost never play Namyats) with a bit more defence.

Change my K of ♣ to the ace and I have two defensive tricks and would consider the 1 to 4 ♥ route and make my Q of ♥ the K and I would definately do it, even though the K of ♥ is unlikely to cash since I want to show some real good offence by 1 to 4 as well.

What a fine thread this has become .. neilkaz ..

[pclayton]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 18 2007, 07:41 AM, said:

I would open 1H and rebid 4H, nicely defined in our system file as "a 4H opener with an extra card". That will get to 6H via RKCB, and miss out on the pleasure of making 7NTxx which would certainly be a new score for me!

We still play 4♥ as an old fashioned 4 loser hand that can't open 2♥ and doesn't want to jump shift. ♠Ax ♥AQJTxxxx ♦xx ♣A.

I'm not sure if I like Frances' use. The bidding has got past 2 opponents, so I'm not concerned about preemption. While 4♥ is certainly 'descriptive' with the subject hand, I wonder how often we can take 10 tricks opposite a minimum response?

Of course, preempting the hand initially makes all of this moot.

[FrancesHinden]

Of course, the other possible use of 1H opening and 4H rebid is the 'old-fashioned Acol' meaning of 4-6 in partner's suit and your suit.

This is frequently used after opening 1m (1m - 1M - 4m shows a raise to 4M with a good 6-card suit of your own) but has gone out of fashion after a 1H opener.... probably at about the same time that Acol two-bids went out of fashion.

If you are playing Acol Twos, then Ax AQJ10xxxx xx A surely qualifies?

I don't feel particularly strongly about this hand, which I might prefer to open 4H anyway. As you say, change the CK to the CA or the HQ to the HK and it's easy to open 1H and rebid 4H.

The problem with rebidding two hearts is not the (lack of) pre-emptive effect, but more the risk of missing game. Give partner Jxxxx xx Axx Qxx and he'll pass 2H with game on the heart finesse. It's harder to construct hands on which he'll pass 2H with game virtually cold, although obviously Jxxxx K xxxx Axx is an option..