[neilkaz]

foo, on Jun 16 2007, 03:50 PM, said:

Even playing SA or SAYC w/o 4SF or NMF, the following auctions are forcing.
1C-1H;1S-2D
Responder has not bid NT nor taken a Preference.

1C-1H;1N-2D
Responder has not passed 1N nor rebid their suit cheaply nor taken a Preference.

1C-1H;2C-2S!
Responder's Reverse is always GF

You and I and the good/expert players know this, but I have been dropped after 1♣-1♥-1NT-2♦ opposite SAYCers who claim to be good, and the other auctions require bidding suits you only have 3 cards in, and also other than responder's reverse aren't GF and none highlight the splendid 6 card suit. I have also seen actions where I reverse as responder and was dropped shy of game.

I'll bet that if you go into MBC and play a couple hours a day with inter/good listed players who only state that they play basic SAYC, you'll experience some of what I am talking about and sooner than you expect.

.. neilkaz ..

[hrothgar]

foo, on Jun 17 2007, 12:38 AM, said:

Assuming your pd opens 7- loser hands with 2+ Quick Tricks the vast majority of the time, you know that that there is a possible slam in the air.

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

Bullshit.

As usual, you are assuming that you're own idiosyncratic methods are universal.

There are a lot of different styles of Strong Jump Shifts, and a lot of valid response structures. I think that Karen Walker says it best when she makes the following statement regarding Strong Jump Shifts at http://www.prairiene...ge/b_jshift.htm

Quote

An additional problem arises because so few players have discussed the exact meanings of opener's rebids after the jump-shift. In the auction above, could partner's 3H show a minimum like  S-3 H-KJ76 D-K8754 C-KQJ, where even 6NT is a gamble? Or might he have S-53 H-KQJ4 D-KQJ102  C-86, where 7NT is laydown? You're more likely to find out about partner's distribution if you start with a simple 1S response.

Later in the article, she recommends the following

Quote

Here's a recommended set of agreements for opener's rebids after responder's jump-shift:

* A raise of responder's suit promises one of the top three honors and at least doubleton support (Qx or better, although some players advocate raising with even a singleton honor). With Hand #1, raise to 3S -- partner will be more interested in your filler for his suit than in your club length.

* A failure to raise responder's suit DENIES one of the top three honors in his suit.

* A rebid of your suit shows extra length with good honor strength in the suit. With Hand #2, you can't raise to 3S immediately because it promises a top honor. Instead, rebid 3D to describe your strong suit, then show your spade length with your next bid.

* A new suit shows concentrated honor strength, but not necessarily length. With Hand #3, rebid 3C to show the location of your outside strength.

* Notrump rebids show balanced minimums with stoppers in both unbid suits. Rebid 2NT with Hand #4. Since partner won't have a 4-card heart suit, there's no point in rebidding 3H.

Note that new suit is showing "concentrated honor strength" (significantly different than a cue bid).

My own preferred methods are slightly different. I think that its strongly desirable that raises, NT bids, and space consuming bids have fairly specific requirements. However, I think that its necessary to have a "bid of misery" that denies a hand suitable for more space consuming bids.

For example, in the auction that you provided I prefer that

3♥ promises Hx or better in Hearts
3♦ shows concentrated honor strength in Diamonds
3♣ = Club suit
2N = Stoppers in Spades and Diamonds
2♠ = temporizing. Denies the ability to bid 2NT+

(With the hand in question, I probably should have raised Hearts rather than rebid 2NT, however, we didn't have an agreements and I wanted to protect my positional stoppers)

[pbleighton]

Quote

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

Foo, where do you come up with this crap? Play what you like , but this is completely non-standard.

My 6th Edition Encyclopedia Of Bridge (2001) says:
" Rebids by the opner after a jump shift are not standardized, but the opener should usually make the he was planning after a non-jump response, only, of course one level higher."

Peter

[neilkaz]

pbleighton, on Jun 16 2007, 04:35 PM, said:

Quote

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

Foo, where do you come up with this crap? Play what you like , but this is completely non-standard.

My 6th Edition Encyclopedia Of Bridge (2001) says:
" Rebids by the opner after a jump shift are not standardized, but the opener should usually make the he was planning after a non-jump response, only, of course one level higher."

Peter

Yes..noting I play and like Hrothgar's rebidding system after SJS .. neilkaz ..

[Double !]

I'd respond 2H in a heartbeat.

There are just certain hands where you have to get your strength and decent suit off of your chest asap and then relax. This, IMO, is such a hand. Remember, a strong jump-shift is not slam forcing: it is game forcing and slam invitational depending on opener's rebid. If partner rebids 3 Clubs, then you have an easy 3NT.

DHL

[FrancesHinden]

With a regular partner I trust both not to pass a forcing bid, and to have a sensible exchange of information, 1H. With a pick-up online partner, 2H. This has the merit of i) forcing to game, and ii) getting to an easy slam when partner has extra values.

[cherdano]

Usually, one of the hand types in a strong jump shift is a hand with one good suit (5+), balanced, and about 15-17 points. I am tempted to show this hand type, i.e. jump to 2♥ and rebid NT at the lowest level after that.

The suit definitely isn't good enough to show this as a SJS single suiter.

[mike777]

1H

I can see an ugly 4sf auction coming up.

If partner wants to bid a strong jump shift with 2H , fine, this is playable.

[jillybean]

For the 1♥ bidders, how do you continue after 1♣:1♥ 1nt ?

[helene_t]

pbleighton, on Jun 16 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

Quote

SJS are to be used with very, very specific hand types, which you should have pre-agreed with pard. Otherwise you're better off forgetting the words "strong jump shift"

Fine for you and your partner, but *playing sayc* is dollars-to-doughnuts with a piackup pd, who will interpret it as any strong hand.

I prefer to have more respect for my pick-up partners. Since 1♥ would not deny GF values, 2♥ cannot mean "any strong hand". When you want to stay in control and/or when you can describe your hand via 1♥, it's better to do so.

This is a hand that is too weak to insist on slam yet too strong to sign off if partner responds in some wide-ranging fasion (1♠ is the only option that applies here) to 1♥. Here are some possible ways of dealing with this hand:
1) 1♥. When opener rebids 1♠, use FSF to get more info of p's hand, especially whether it's minimum or not. Then make a decision.
2) 1♥. When opener rebids 1♠, use FSF followed by 3♥ to show these values.
3) 2♥. This can show a number of hand types. Opener will usually relay with 2N. Rebidding 3♥ shows this hand: 16-18 points, one-suited. Opener can make a decision.

You can combine 1) and 2) of course: start with 1♥, then FSF, then place the contract if you know enough and otherwise kick the ball back to p with 3♥. The problem with this is that such a sequence does not necesarily show more than just GF values. It is unclear how much extras p needs to start cuebidding over 3♥. It is not even clear (to me at least) if 3♥ will set trumps or if p can still make a natural 4♣ call.

The problem with 3) is that it probably shows a better suit and/or some club tollerance. Besides, it is far from clear that 2♥ followed by 3♥ would actually show this hand (some would assume a solid suit, some would assume less general values). Finally, there is no standard (AFAIK) for opener's follow-ups other than 2N. And p may even pass 2♥, assuming WJS.

I bid 2♥. I never use SJS unless I have specific agreements about how to use them and/or playing a system with non-forcing simple shifts such as Viena.

[skjaeran]

jillybean2, on Jun 17 2007, 08:03 AM, said:

For the 1♥ bidders, how do you continue after 1♣:1♥ 1nt ?

That's an easy one.
Those who play simple oldfashioned check back stayman rebids 2♣.
Those who play NMF rebid 2♦.
Those who play xy-NT or xyz rebid 2♦, art. GF.
Playing check back or NMF you have to follow up with a GF.

[foo]

jillybean2, on Jun 17 2007, 01:03 AM, said:

For the 1♥  bidders, how do you continue after 1♣-1♥;1N- ??

As I posted before, 1♣-1♥;1N-2♦
(NMF! if you play it. Obviously forcing else.)

possible continuations and their implications:
;2♥
3 card ♥ support means a 9 card fit. Now probe for slam.
Opener's most likely shapes are =3334, =2344, =2335, or =3325

;2♠
For some would imply Opener is =4333 (Most with 44 in the Blacks would rebid 1S, not 1N). For others, it's conventional of some form. Unless previously discussed as conventional, assume =4333.

;2N
Denies 3 cards in ♥'s. Denies 4 cards in ♠'s. Shows ♦ stop(s). Opener is most likely =3244, =3235, =2245, or even =3145.

;3♣
Denies all of the above and denies ♦ stops as well. Usually shows a 5 card suit implying Opener is ~ =3235 w/ weak ♦'s.

;3♦
An unusual bid in this sequence. Strongly implies that Opener is =3244, =2245, or =3145 w/ xxxx in ♦'s.

[foo]

Pardon the delay in responding to all of you with obvious interest in what a SJS should show and what the best bidding structure involving them should be.
I've been working and have not had a chance to get back.

I'll start a separate thread on SJS's and the best SJS structures after I've had some rest.

[foo]

2x post.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Jun 17 2007, 01:03 AM, said:

For the 1♥ bidders, how do you continue after 1♣:1♥ 1nt ?

Hi,

you can take either the lazy route, i.e bid 4H or
go scientific, using NMF, i.e. bidding 2D followe
by 3H, which would show game going hand with 6
hearts, the 2nd option is certainly better.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pbleighton]

Quote

I prefer to have more respect for my pick-up partners. Since 1♥ would not deny GF values, 2♥ cannot mean "any strong hand". When you want to stay in control and/or when you can describe your hand via 1♥, it's better to do so.

Helene, what hands would you bid 2H on, if not this one?

Peter

[Fluffy]

1♣-1♥
1NT-4♣

wich is auto-splinter for me, maybe its not standard on other countries.

[EricK]

I will quote from Terrence Reese (this particular quote comes from "Bridge for Ambitious Players", published 1988 but I am sure I could find similar quotes from him):

"The old-fashioned forcing response, such as two hearts over one diamond, has become - well, it has become old-fashioned. In America, particularly, a jump response tends to show either a very rare giant or, for some players, a long suit in a weak hand. It may be right not to force when you have no fit, but when you have a good suit of your own, or strong support for partner, it must be sensible to make a jump response. As Culbertson pointed out more than 50 years ago, you don't save time by making a minimum response, because you have to jump later; or bid around the cllock, giving no picture of what you hold."

What can be gathered from this thread is that this opinion is, if anything, even less popular these days. And more to the point, that "bidding around the clock, giving no picture of what you hold" (i.e. FSF, NMF, fake reverses and so on) is not considered to be a bad thing.

I, on the other hand, agree with Reese. The fact that forcing immediately is best on this type of hand is constantly reinforced by the sheer number of hands posted here or on rec.games.bridge where somebody asks how to bid a pair of hands and the obvious solution is to start with a SJS. On the other hand one never sees hands posted where a SJS to the 2 level was made and they got to the wrong contract as a result.

[pclayton]

skaeran, on Jun 17 2007, 12:38 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 17 2007, 08:03 AM, said:

For the 1♥  bidders, how do you continue after 1♣:1♥  1nt ?

That's an easy one.
Those who play simple oldfashioned check back stayman rebids 2♣.
Those who play NMF rebid 2♦.
Those who play xy-NT or xyz rebid 2♦, art. GF.
Playing check back or NMF you have to follow up with a GF.

Agree with all of this except the XYZ followup. Playing XYZ you dont have to monkey around with 2D, but rather bid a direct 3H which expresses this hand type well.

[helene_t]

pbleighton, on Jun 17 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Helene, what hands would you bid 2H on, if not this one?

None, maybe. Depends on agreement. In the absense of agreements, I would never use SJS.

If I could assume partner had read roughfly the same books as I have, I would probably make a SJS shift with this one. I'd prefer a slightly better suit, it's boarderline.

What I'm objecting to is your "any strong hand" statement. That is simply not playable, even if partner can be assumed to be on the same wavelength. Make the suit slightly weaker and I don't think anybody would make a SJS. Also, if this is the correct strength for a SJS, you cannot make a SJS with three points less as well.