[Quantumcat]

Scoring: MP

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Bidding goes, 1♦ from partner, 1♥, I said 1♠, overcaller's partner says 2♥, partner passes, so does opp now it's my turn. I chose to say 3♣, partner bid 3♠ all out and made. They make 2♥ according to the other scores.

I thought I was just competing for our own partscore but pards said he thought 3♣ was forcing (he had 11 pts for his open with 5♦'s 4♣'s and 2♠'s)

Is 3♣ forcing? If it's not what would be a forcing bid if I had a game going hand? What would 3♥ by me mean? or 3♦ given I said 1♠ first?

Sorry for this probably very basic question! I haven't been playing long.

[cherdano]

Important question, any bridge question is welcome on B/I unless it is waaaay too advanced
A new suit by responder is usually forcing; there are exceptions(*), but this isn't one of them.

If you just want to compete for the partscore, you can bid 2♠ with your hand, or you can double for takeout with other shapes. Whatever you do, you definitely should not pass this hand out against 2♥.

Arend

*: 1H (1N) 2D is non-forcing, with a good hand you can double 1N for penalty most of the time.

[Fluffy]

Yes, this is not an easy question.

I would take 3♣ as non-forcing WITH LONGER Clubs (but support double has somethign to do here).

I'd double with stronger hands.




If I remember correctly, I play a conventional 2NT with my partner to show weak 3♣/♦ vs strong one (and yet to ever happen).

[P_Marlowe]

2S.

3C is forcing, unless playing methods, which
allow you to play 3C as nonforcing, ... first
learn to walk, later you may try running.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: You have the spades, tell this partner,
add. you dont raise the level, a good thing,
at least if your declarer play is as badly as
mine, not likely, but still possible, since you
posted this in the B/I forum.

[jtfanclub]

Quantumcat, on Jun 11 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

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Since you have 6 spades, this is an easy 2♠ call.

If you only had 5 spades (say, AT9xx x Qx KT9xx), I would double. If partner then said 3♦, well, that's where we'd play.

I don't think competition changes much here...it didn't use up any space to mention. I think the meaning of 2♠ and 3♣ mean the same thing they would after 1♦-1♠-2♦.

3♦ is belated support- four diamonds, to play, some extra strength.

3♥ depends on what you play- I'm used to it asking partner to bid 3NT with a heart stop, 3♠ without a heart stop but spade tolerence, and otherwise 4 of a minor with no heart stop and very few spades.

[whereagles]

Fluffy, on Jun 11 2007, 01:49 PM, said:

Yes, this is not an easy question.

I would take 3♣ as non-forcing WITH LONGER Clubs (but support double has somethign to do here).

I'd double with stronger hands.

Completely correct, but let me just add one thing: if you play that 1♠ is 5 cards, then 3♣ gets rather muddy

[helene_t]

I think you should just bid 2♠. Yes you have more than a minimum but you are not forced to bid, and if partner is short in spades, you don't want to get any higher.

This is especially true if an immediate 2♠ by you would have been weak. In that case you're now implying a hand too strong for a weak jump shift which is excactly what you have.

If you think your hand is too good for 2♠, it's a tough call between 3♠ and 3♣. If your 1♠ promised 4, I think you have to rebid them. If it promised 5, I have sympathy for 3♣ although it suggests 5 and probably a better hand (it's not clear if 3♣ is forcing but my guess is that most decent partners would assume it is).

Pass is not an option of course (don't even think of that) and double is not really an option either, IMHO. Partner will pass your double with four hearts and that rates to be bad.

[mike777]

I think this is a very tough problem. Everyone seems to think that double shows a stronger hand but if you do not open on junk then I think double is at least worth thinking about. At the very least bidding a kneejerk 2spades on this suit and saying it is automatick is debatable. Interesting problem. Thank you for posting.

[Gerben42]

1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♥
Pass Pass ?

1♠ was unlimited and now you bid an (the) unbid suit, ♣, on the 3-level. What should it mean? It's FORCING. Why?

Partner didn't promise any ♣, so you are LOOKING for a fit on the 3-level. For this you need a strong hand. So, the correct bid on your hand is... 2♠.

Some people have agreed something else but this is not standard.

[Quantumcat]

Thank you all for your replies! It is really clearing up some ideas for me (and for many others I imagine).

How does your bidding change when you have:

• 0 diamonds (do you follow the "stop bidding when you see a misfit" rule? If the opps have a fit so do you, but what if its in clubs?)
  
• 5 spades and 5 clubs (and the 1♠ bid only promises 4)
  
• 6 spades and 6 clubs
  
• more clubs than spades

[helene_t]

This will depend on what system and gadgets we play (support doubles? G/B 2NT? Does 1♦ suggest 5, or a good 4? Strong or weak 1NT?)

But generally, my decision of whether or not to reopen depends on the number of enemy trumps that I hold. Something like
0 hearts: I need 5 HCPs. (I.e. I will always bid)
1 heart: I need 7 HCPs
2 hearts: I need 9 HCPs
3 hearts: I need 10/11 HCPs
4 hearts: I need 12 HCPs.

Of course it depends on other things also, in particular whether I have a convenient bid.

[foo]

Quantumcat, on Jun 12 2007, 08:45 AM, said:

Thank you all for your replies! It is really clearing up some ideas for me (and for many others I imagine).

How does your bidding change when you have:

• 0 diamonds (do you follow the "stop bidding when you see a misfit" rule? If the opps have a fit so do you, but what if its in clubs?)
  
  
• 5 spades and 5 clubs (and the 1♠ bid only promises 4)
  
  
• 6 spades and 6 clubs
  
  
• more clubs than spades

An important principle rest of this is based on is
*All X's by Us below 2N in this auction are for Take Out, not Penalty*

1= with your original hand of
♠AT9xxx♥x♦Qx♣KT9x
and the opponents having a fit in ♥'s, the odds are very good that Our fit is in ♠'s. Pard only needs 2 ♠'s for Us to have a fit. Rather than 4 ♣'s.
Change the hand to
♠AT9xxx♥Qxx♦♣KT9x
and the principle remains the same.
With a min, you can't afford to introduce a 2nd suit anyway.


2= If playing SA w/o gadgets like Negative X's when holding 55 in ♠+♣ and the auction starts 1♦-(1♥)-??, you have a number of choices depending on the strength of your hand:
a= min= 6-9 HCP => X, showing at least 44 in the unbid suits. Then if it goes
1♦-(1♥)-X-(2♥);pa-pa-??
you X again to show extras. In this case, extra shape.
(All this changes once you start playing Negative X's. Then, perversely, this hand becomes harder to bid)
b= Med= 10-11 HCP => bid 1♠, then 3♣ over (2♥)
c= MAX= 12+ HCP => bid 1♠, then make forcing calls until We are in Game or They are X'd at the 3N level or higher.


3= 66 is like 55 only more so. Now the HCP ranges for min, Med, and MAX are ~ a K less than the above ranges I gave you +and+ you avoid letting Us make Penalty X's like The Plague. You don't make them holding 66, and you pull partner's if partner makes one.


4= 45 or 56 S+C.
These are very different hand types from each other; and again, your strength range matters.
a= min 45's => X to show S+C's and pass the hand out if the auction goes
1♦-(1♥)-X-(2♥);pa-pa-??
b= Med 45's => Bid 2♣'s and hope Opener can bid 2♠
c= MAX 45's => Bid 2♣'s, then "Reverse" by bidding 2♠'s:
1♦-(1♥)-2♣-(2♥);pa-pa-2♠
*Responder's Reverse is Game Forcing*

56 hands are like 45 hands only more so. ...and you don't make Penalty X's or let Penalty X's by partner stay in
You bid min 56's as if they were min 55's: X. Then X again to show extra shape.