[dcvetkov]

---

Ok, this is with a pickup partner and bidding is as follows. Assume SAYC.

North South
1♦ 2♣
2♥ 2♠
3NT 4♣ *
4♦** 4♠**
4NT 5♠ ***
6♠** ??

*- Showing slam interest and presumably 6+-4, setting trumps
** - Cue Bid ( agreeing clubs?)
4NT - unknown, assuming RKCB for clubs
*** - 2 Key Cards with the Queen♣
6♠- presumably 2nd spade control

? Your choices seems to be 7♣, 6NT, 7NT, What is your bid?

Does 6♠ cue bid promises first round heart control?
Should North place the final contract after 5♠? ( he known about lack of first round control in South). As you see top contract is 6NT from North side.

Do you assign any blame in bidding and where?

[helene_t]

Many will say that North's 2♥ rebid promises more than he has. FWIW I think it's close but would probably rebid 2♦.

South's second bid must be 3♣ or maybe 4♣. Or he could start with 3♣. 2♠ is confusing.

Over 4♣, North should probably sign off in 4N. He already stretched and the hands don't seem to fit very well.

North's 6♠ is strange. The only sense I can make of it is that it is to play. If it really shows a spade control, South must evidently bid 7. At IMPs I'd prefer 7♣.

[mike777]

dcvetkov, on Jun 11 2007, 03:30 AM, said:

---

Ok, this is with a pickup partner and bidding is as follows. Assume SAYC.

North South
1♦ 2♣
2♥ 2♠
3NT 4♣ *
4♦** 4♠**
4NT 5♠ ***
6♠** ??

*- Showing slam interest and presumably 6+-4, setting trumps
** - Cue Bid ( agreeing clubs?)
4NT - unknown, assuming RKCB for clubs
*** - 2 Key Cards with the Queen♣
6♠- presumably 2nd spade control

? Your choices seems to be 7♣, 6NT, 7NT, What is your bid?

Does 6♠ cue bid promises first round heart control?
Should North place the final contract after 5♠? ( he known about lack of first round control in South). As you see top contract is 6NT from North side.

Do you assign any blame in bidding and where?

Object! strongly

we are playing sayc and cannot bid 3c over 1D OBJECT ?

[whereagles]

Sounds as if neither player knew what he was doing, but in any case 6♠ is a rather irresponsible bid. Just bid either 6♣ or 6NT.

[Codo]

1 ♦ 2 ♣ was the fine art of bidding. You wish to learn more about pds hand
2 ♥ I have not enough values for a reverse, but I have a singleton. That must count for something....
2 ♠ Okay I show a second suit. Or do I ask for stopper?
3 NT I stop the Spades for sure and I am minimum for my bidding so far.
4 ♣ I am not finished yet. I want to show a hand with 4 Spades and a selfsuficent 6+ Club suit, so 4 Club must show this hand.
4♦ I really dislike clubs. Did I mentioned my 5. Diamond already?
4 ♠ I set Clubs as trump, so this is a control. I know that. Pd know that? No, He still is looking for the right strain, not for cuebids.

4 NT I don´t like clubs, but I like to play 4 NT. I am still min. for my bidding
5 ♠ I answer blackwood. Pd things that I show a kind of 5xx6 freak.
6 ♠ Okay, I give up. This is it For his pd: Grand slam try ???

7 NT we have evrything, doubled -1, bad luck


This is my guess, how good old middle hand opponent and me did understand the bidding. Anyway I would pass 6 Spade, this could not show the ace of H, this must be somehow to play. Anything else would be silly without discussion.

For the blame: 2 ♥ was silly. And I always favour to bid 4 ♣ as RCKB for Club, which had made it a lilttle easier to find the 50 % 6 Club or the about 90 % 6 NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 open discussion, issue: should reverses promise add.
strength, in SAYC the answer is yes, i.e. I would say
you are to weak to make a rverse
#2 2S is FSF, i.e. does not show a real suit, hence 4C does
not show 6-4
#3 4D certainly is a cue bid, agrees clubs (more precise 4C did set club
as trumps)
#4 4S denies a heart control
#5 South should bid 5C
#6 unless I am miscounting, South has 3 key cards + the Queen
#7 6S does not exist, ... well it does, but it is a grand slam trial,
but South knows the partnership is missing a key card (the Ace
of hearts) and since 5NT would be asking for Aces, the 5S answer
shows, why it was wrong to bid 4NT
South knows that the partnership is already in trouble, he should bid
6NT, hoping, that partner has the Ace of club and the King can
be finessed and is at most doubleton

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

Codo, on Jun 11 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

For the blame: 2 ♥ was silly.

I always find it interesting when people put the blame on an undisciplined bid, even if it contributed ZERO to the disaster. Add the ♥Q to opener's hand and the reverse is absolutely normal, but the very same disaster still occurs.

The reason this auction derailed wasn't the 2♥ overbid but rather the muddy 6♠ bid, coupled by the clear inability to discover who was doing what.

[Fluffy]

Seems you need more agreements

Even lacking them you should be ok, but north made 2 inconsitent bids, if he bids 4♦, he agrees on clubs to be the trump, then he should bid 6♣ after 5♠

If he didn't like clubs then he should bid 4NT or 5♣ instead of 4♦.

[foo]

dcvetkov, on Jun 11 2007, 03:30 AM, said:

Ok, this is with a pickup partner and bidding is as follows. Assume SAYC.

1♦-2♣;
2♥-2♠;
3N-4♣ *;
4♦** -4♠**;
4N-5♠ ***;
6♠**-??

*- Showing slam interest and presumably 6+-4, setting trumps
** - Cue Bid ( agreeing clubs?)     
4NT - unknown, assuming RKCB for clubs
*** -  2 Key Cards with the Queen♣
6♠- presumably 2nd spade control

? Your choices seems to be 7♣, 6NT, 7NT, What is your bid?

Does 6♠ cue bid promises first round heart control?
Should North place the final contract after 5♠? ( he known about lack of first round control in South). As you see top contract is 6NT from North side.

Do you assign any blame in bidding and where?

♠KQx♥Kxxx♦AQxxx♣x
+
♠AJxx♥xx♦♣AKQJxxx

There's a few problems in the original auction given with these as the hands.

1D-2C has been called the most troublesome start to the auction in Standard bidding.

In SA w/o specialized or contrary agreements, Opener's "High Reverse", such as 1D-2C;2M, shows 15+ HCP and is GF. Here Opener does not have that (and a stiff ♣ did not improve their hand!) and should simply rebid 2D.

If Opener rebids 2D, Responder's rebid should be 4C, GF.

If Opener rebids 2H, Then a GF has been set and Responder should pattern out their shape as naturally as possible.
Thus 1D-2C;2H-3C.

If the auction begins according to these guidelines the wheels won't come off as easily as they did and you should end up in 5♣ where you belong.

[hrothgar]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

In SA w/o specialized or contrary agreements, Opener's "High Reverse", such as 1D-2C;2M, shows 15+ HCP and is GF.  Here Opener does not have that (and a stiff ♣ did not improve their hand!) and should simply rebid 2D.

1♦ - 2♣
2♥

is not a "high reverse". It doesn't do much good to try to show off your knowledge of vocabulary if you misapply basic nomenclature. Its also quite bizarre to be introducing this expression in a SAYC discussion.

The "classic" example of a high reverse is

1♠ - 2♦
3♣

All examples of a "high reverse" require that Opener's second suit is bid at the three level.

[hrothgar]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

If the auction begins according to these guidelines the wheels won't come off as easily as they did and you should end up in 5♣ where you belong.

Shouldn't that read 6N by North? (its where we played)

I won't claim that we had that great an auction. (I was playing with a pickup partner and pretty much dumped him in 6N). However, looking at both hands it seems clear that 6N is a damn good contract.

[cherdano]

In the given auction I don't understand the jump to 3N. Why the hurry?
If responder bids a normal 2N, then opener can jump to 4♣, giving a very good picture of his hand (solid clubs with spades on the side). I would claim then it's easy for responder to gear towards 6N, but given that some don't even realize this is a great contract seeing both hands, I am not so sure...

[foo]

hrothgar, on Jun 11 2007, 07:37 AM, said:

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

In SA w/o specialized or contrary agreements, Opener's "High Reverse", such as 1D-2C;2M, shows 15+ HCP and is GF.  Here Opener does not have that (and a stiff ♣ did not improve their hand!) and should simply rebid 2D.

1♦ - 2♣;2♥

is not a "high reverse". It doesn't do much good to try to show off your knowledge of vocabulary if you misapply basic nomenclature. Its also quite bizarre to be introducing this expression in a SAYC discussion.

The "classic" example of a high reverse is
1♠-2♦;3♣

All examples of a "high reverse" require that Opener's second suit is bid at the three level.

Leave it to you to focus on the minutia rather than the main points.

Nonetheless folks, the guy has a point. The Encyclopedia specifically uses his definition. I've also seen the term used for any reverse by Opener after a 2/1.
I'll accept the Encyclopedia as definitive and graciously accept the correction.

The _point_ is that a Reverse by Opener here is something that should be avoided if at all possible without 15+ HCP playing SA. Particularly after 1D-2C.

I have no idea what "Its also quite bizarre to be introducing this expression in a SAYC discussion." means. The basic terminology of 2/1 bidding is not system dependent.

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on Jun 11 2007, 07:55 AM, said:

In the given auction I don't understand the jump to 3N. Why the hurry?
If responder bids a normal 2N, then opener can jump to 4♣, giving a very good picture of his hand (solid clubs with spades on the side). I would claim then it's easy for responder to gear towards 6N, but given that some don't even realize this is a great contract seeing both hands, I am not so sure...

Hi,

I did not comment on the jump to 3NT:

The reason, it is unclear, if 4th suit was
already gameforcing, ok 2H + 2/1 should
do the job, but if 2H does not promise add.
strength and 2S could just be inv.+, than
you have to jump.
The other possibility is, that 3NT was fast
arrival, somewhere in the auction you have
to limit your hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[foo]

hrothgar, on Jun 11 2007, 07:41 AM, said:

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

If the auction begins according to these guidelines the wheels won't come off as easily as they did and you should end up in 5♣ where you belong.

Shouldn't that read 6N by North? (its where we played)

I won't claim that we had that great an auction. (I was playing with a pickup partner and pretty much dumped him in 6N). However, looking at both hands it seems clear that 6N is a damn good contract.

♠KQx♥Kxxx♦AQxxx♣x
+
♠AJxx♥xx♦♣AKQJxxx

6 anything is at best a 50% contract.
(If the ♥A is off side, you are down. If the ♥A is onside and ♠'s or ♣'s break badly enough, you are down.)

50% at best is not my definition of "a damn fine contract". YMMV.

Judging from the quoted comment, I take it the ♥A was favorably placed in this case.

[P_Marlowe]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 08:15 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Jun 11 2007, 07:41 AM, said:

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

If the auction begins according to these guidelines the wheels won't come off as easily as they did and you should end up in 5♣ where you belong.

Shouldn't that read 6N by North? (its where we played)

I won't claim that we had that great an auction. (I was playing with a pickup partner and pretty much dumped him in 6N). However, looking at both hands it seems clear that 6N is a damn good contract.

♠KQx♥Kxxx♦AQxxx♣x
+
♠AJxx♥xx♦♣AKQJxxx

6 anything is at best a 50% contract.
(If the ♥A is off side, you are down. If the ♥A is onside and ♠'s or ♣'s break badly enough, you are down.)

50% at best is not my definition of "a damn fine contract". YMMV.

Unless I miscount, 6NT from North is 100%,
4Spades, 7clubs (unless clubs happen to be 5-0) and the Ace,
given that I need clubs 5-0, I reduce 100% to what ever
number suits you.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[foo]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 11 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Unless I miscount, 6NT from North is 100%,
4Spades, 7clubs (unless clubs happen to be 5-0) and the Ace.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Given the original auction, yes.

I'm not sure N would be the first person to bid NT if the bidding had gone by the book:

1D-2C;2D-4C;etc

[hrothgar]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 04:15 PM, said:

♠KQx♥Kxxx♦AQxxx♣x
+
♠AJxx♥xx♦♣AKQJxxx

6 anything is at best a 50% contract.
(If the ♥A is off side, you are down.  If the ♥A is onside and ♠'s or ♣'s break badly enough, you are down.)

50% at best is not my definition of "a damn fine contract".  YMMV.

Judging from the quoted comment, I take it the ♥A was favorably placed in this case.

Please note the qualifier: 6N by NORTH. It impacts the analysis.

From my perspective, AJxx opposite KQx is four tricks regardless of how the Spades might break.

AKQJxxx opposite x is 7 tricks unless you get a 5-0 club break.

Care to rethink that 50% estimate? Hell, 6N in the South is probably significantly better than 50% since its not necessarily clear to lead a Heart.

[hrothgar]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 04:07 PM, said:

I have no idea what "Its also quite bizarre to be introducing this expression in a SAYC discussion." means. The basic terminology of 2/1 bidding is not system dependent.

The point is that expression "High Reverse" is not part of the basic terminology of SAYC or 2/1 bidding.

The expression "High Reverse" developed in England, within the context of Acol type methods. Acol opens 4 card majors. Auction like

1♠ - 2♦
2♠

and

1♠ - 2♦
3♣

carry very different inferences. There are some echos of the old "High Reverse" discussions in the North American debates regarding the best opening with 5-5 in the black suits. However, its been years since I saw anyone seriously advocate a 1♣ opening with a minimum strength 5=1=2=5 hand.

I apologize for focusing on minutia, however, you have a real tenancy to make some very definitive / sweeping statements. I think that its useful to point out that many of these are "factually challenged"...

[foo]

hrothgar, on Jun 11 2007, 08:25 AM, said:

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 04:15 PM, said:

♠KQx♥Kxxx♦AQxxx♣x
+
♠AJxx♥xx♦♣AKQJxxx

6 anything is at best a 50% contract.
(If the ♥A is off side, you are down.  If the ♥A is onside and ♠'s or ♣'s break badly enough, you are down.)

50% at best is not my definition of "a damn fine contract".  YMMV.

Judging from the quoted comment, I take it the ♥A was favorably placed in this case.

Please note the qualifier: 6N by NORTH. It impacts the analysis.

From my perspective, AJxx opposite KQx is four tricks regardless of how the Spades might break.

AKQJxxx opposite x is 7 tricks unless you get a 5-0 club break.

Care to rethink that 50% estimate?

The confusion is evidently based on us talking about 2 different auctions.

The auction as given, while wrong, has the advantage that N bid NT first.

The auction "by the book" makes it unclear that N would be the 1st to bid NT IMHO.