[sceptic]

I bid this hand and I consider bidding 3 hearts not 3NT

1/. would that be 100% forcing and what would you do, we were playing 2/1 if that makes any difference

here is the hand TY

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 1♦    Pass  Pass  Dbl
 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♠
 Pass  2NT   Pass  3NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 3H instead of 3NT is certainly forcing,
that does not mean it is a good bid,
partner already denied a 3card spade
suit and a 4 card heart suit, i.e. 3H
should promise 5-5, this just get countered
by the question: why did South not bid 2D.

#2 2S is also nonforcing, ... there may be
other who dont agree, but it would certainly
be nonforcing for me, i.e. I prefer 3S or 2D,
the later would create a game forcing auction.

#3 2/1 has nothing to do with the given problem

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

sceptic, on Jun 10 2007, 11:53 AM, said:

I bid this hand and I consider bidding 3 hearts not 3NT

1/. would that be 100% forcing and what would you do, we were playing 2/1 if that makes any difference

here is the hand  TY

Dealer: West Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ 85 ♥ J54 ♦ KQ42 ♣ K953 ♠   ♥ A3 ♦ J87653 ♣ AJ764 ♠ J97642 ♥ T962 ♦ T ♣ T8 ♠ AKQT3 ♥ KQ87 ♦ A9 ♣ Q2

West  North East  South

 1♦    Pass  Pass  Dbl
 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♠
 Pass  2NT   Pass  3NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

North should jump to 3nt over your 2s rebid. North now has a max hand.

I understand the concern over just bidding 2s with the south hand but I think it is ok to have a maximum hand for your bids sometimes.

[Trinidad]

For me, 2♠ is already a game forcing bid. The logic is as follows. By doubling first and then bidding a new suit you show a hand that was too strong to overcall. If you want to express it in hcp, let's say that it shows 17+, if the double would have been in direct seat. (I know it wasn't here. But we'll get to that in the end.)

The responder to a take out double has several bids to show a positive response. All single jumps in a suit show about 8-11 hcp. If, like me, you like to double aggresively when the shape is perfect, a 1NT response should also show good values. (You don't want to bid 1NT with 6 points and a stopper when the doubler can have a 4441 with 10 nice points. Thus, again for me, a 1NT response to a direct seat take out double shows about 8-11.

If you add the 8-11 from the positive response to the 17+ from the Dbl + new suit, it is clear that you have the strength for game. Thus, a takeout dbl, a positive response and a new suit is GF.

In this case, the Dbl was in the balancing seat, rather than the direct seat. The system stays the same, but the point ranges change. The standard is that the balancer borrows a king from his partner. That means that North should value his hand as 6 hcp and than the 1NT response is an overbid.

The key thing in this discussion is whether you value a 1NT response as a positive action or not. If you do, that makes these auctions (Dbl-1NT; new suit) simple. And if you are an aggressive doubler the 1NT response has to show values.

(You can also look at it another way: The double tells partner to pick a suit. Not obeying your partner [bidding 1NT is not pickking a suit] shows extra values.)

Rik

[jdonn]

The auction was absolutely perfect. No need for south to bid hearts since north won't have 4 after bidding notrump twice.

[helene_t]

mike777, on Jun 10 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

North should jump to 3nt over your 2s rebid. North now has a max hand.

I don't think so. Opposite a 4th-seat dbl, the NT ranges are something like
3N= 15
2N=(12)13-14
1N=(8)9-11(12)

I'm not sure if South's 2♠ is forcing but North might have passed 2♠ if she thought it was not. If undiscussed I would make a cuebid over p' s 1N with the South hand.

As for 3♥ I'm not sure either, but I think it should show 5-5 majors, especially if Michael's cubid is not available in 4th seat. (In SAYC, 2♦ would be a strong hand with a void diamonds.FWIW I think that's a good agreement).

[mike777]

helene_t, on Jun 11 2007, 01:38 AM, said:

mike777, on Jun 10 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

North should jump to 3nt over your 2s rebid.  North now has a max hand.

I don't think so. Opposite a 4th-seat dbl, the NT ranges are something like
3N= 15
2N=(12)13-14
1N=(8)9-11(12)

I'm not sure if South's 2♠ is forcing but North might have passed 2♠ if she thought it was not. If undiscussed I would make a cuebid over p' s 1N with the South hand.

As for 3♥ I'm not sure either, but I think it should show 5-5 majors, especially if Michael's cubid is not available in 4th seat. (In SAYC, 2♦ would be a strong hand with a void diamonds.FWIW I think that's a good agreement).

wtf?

North is closer to forcing to slam than passing.

[Flame]

1. make sense to me that 2♠ as forcing.
2. north hand is min for the 1NT not max.

[dcvetkov]

After a suit, 2♠ would not be a forcing, but I see it makes sense to play as forcing after 1NT and trying to get to right contract. Both hand should have at least 25 HCP

3H would be forcing, but its inferior bid and tells opponents more about your hand.

Auction was fine, although I would considered straight 3NT on 1NT. Its a game most likely to make and you have 5-4-2-2 with values in all suits. I think dreaming of slam here is unrealistic, partner needs some perfect 11 points and good breaks