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5611 after minor preempt

#21 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-May-22, 15:27

Adam I think your construction still shows that bidding is against the odds. If partner has 3 hearts, then you need a minor suit ace and a 2-2 break, clearly against the IMPs odds. Even the 2-2 break alone is slightly against the non-vulnerable IMP odds. (Also, you could get doubled on a 3-1 trump break.)
So you only gain when partner has Hxx and a minor suit ace. That's a very unlikely target. (I am sure a simulation would show that partner is quite unlikely to have 3 hearts here.)
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#22 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2007-May-22, 19:37

Here's the full hand


Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 -     2    Pass  2
 Pass  3    Pass  3
 Pass  3NT   Pass  4
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#23 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-May-22, 20:00

I would have passed. Ok, so 4H happens to make here, but
1) Nth is max for the 2D opening, and some would open 1D
2) The D hook works
3) H are 2-2
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#24 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-May-22, 20:28

The diamond hook is irrelevant, agree with the rest of Ron's comments. I would not be comfortable opening 2D with the north hand when white vs red.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#25 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-May-22, 20:57

adam, your partner is going to raise 2H with 2 like almost always (since he's not going to have 2 small very often if he has 2 given how many small ones we have). Hx is a very normal raise.
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#26 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2007-May-22, 23:58

Partner will certainly raise with Kx or Ax. Maybe with Qx too. But the raise is often to 3 and not 4. If partner has a maximum with three hearts then I'm very likely to get a high heart honor (even Qxx will help the odds) and the diamond ace.

If partner has some hand like:

xx
Ax
KJxxxx
xxx

then sure, I will play 3. But 3 is not much worse than 2 on this hand.

If partner has something like:

x
QJx
AJxxxx
xxx

then 2 gets me to game.

Basically bidding 2 will: (1) get me to 4 when it's good (2) fairly often get me to play 3 instead of 2, which is probably win 2 more often than it's a minus position by far (3) fairly often get me to play 3 instead of 2 for a possible loss, but with a very good chance opponents make an inferior lead that could well cause me to break even.

It seems okay to me.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#27 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2007-May-23, 01:08

Quote

♠ 8 
♥ QT8 
♦ AJ9854 
♣ K43 


Partner has a supermax weak two with great support and the ACE of and trumps break 2 - 2 for just making. Congratulations. 90% of the time you are just handing out free IMPs. Still Pass. 2nd alternative Pass. 3rd alternative PASS.
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#28 User is offline   Halo 

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Posted 2007-May-23, 01:45

I still prefer 2 to 2, but bidding spades planning a heart rebid is OK. I would never pass 2.
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#29 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2007-May-23, 05:12

I don't play wk2 NV, but do vul. Then it's very constructive. But I'd still pass with this hand.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#30 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2007-May-23, 09:15

awm, on May 23 2007, 12:58 AM, said:

Partner will certainly raise with Kx or Ax. Maybe with Qx too. But the raise is often to 3 and not 4. If partner has a maximum with three hearts then I'm very likely to get a high heart honor (even Qxx will help the odds) and the diamond ace.

If partner has some hand like:

xx
Ax
KJxxxx
xxx

then sure, I will play 3. But 3 is not much worse than 2 on this hand.

I don't think this example is totally fair. As compared to that hand, something like xx Kx KJTxxx xxx is potentially a trick worse in hearts, definitely a trick better in diamonds, and a much more clear preempt.

I do admit that if we were to bid, I much prefer hearts to spades. But I still find it wacky.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#31 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2007-May-23, 09:36

I have seen the suggestion that partner's raise of 2H to 3H could be passed. I have never played that, and, frankly, don't think it makes a lot of sense.

While the 2D bid is a preempt, responder is unlimited and to require that opener jump to 4H to show extras (and a semi-blanced hand) consumes valuable bidding space.

And I would have thought that, most of the time, a hand that is strong enough to force via 2H is strong enough to want to be in game if partner fits the suit: if you're not that strong, then pass 2D.

So, for me, the idea that we can try 2H and get out in 3H opposite a minimum makes no sense....if doing so means that we must jump with a max. Not to mention that Ax KJxxxx in the reds sure looks like a GOOD hand opposite a forcing 2H response :P

BTW, I have in the past used an artificial 3C rebid by opener to show a minimum with a fit.... and in that sequence we can still play 3H, while not destroying our own bidding space when opener has a maximum with a fit.

And a fit is defined as Hx (H=Q+) or any 3 card support.
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#32 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2007-May-23, 09:47

mikeh, on May 23 2007, 03:36 PM, said:

I have seen the suggestion that partner's raise of 2H to 3H could be passed. I have never played that, and, frankly, don't think it makes a lot of sense.

I don't think it has any sense specially on this hand, how can 3 be better than 2?, if we are going to bid it has to be to find a makeable game

Nobody else but me thinks lead directing 2 is worth anything so probably I was wrong.
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