[blackshoe]

I suspect there is more than one correct answer.

[mike777]

I just think bidding 2nt on the following hand type is a rare enough problem that one can live with it:

xx....AQx...xx....AQxxxx

[awm]

Ideally over a 1♦ opening you would like to be able to show:

(1) Balanced invite, no major.
(2) Balanced GF, no major.
(3) Weak raise of ♦.
(4) Constructive raise of ♦.
(5) Inv raise of ♦.
(6) GF raise of ♦.
(7) Weak/constructive with lots of ♣.
(8) Inv with lots of ♣.
(9) GF with primary ♣.

Basically the bids you have for these meanings are 2♣, 2♦, and all the various jumps. If you reserve your major suit jumps for some other purpose, you have only 2♣, 2♦, 2NT, 3♣, and 3♦ available. If you insist that 2♣ and 2♦ are both game forcing you're left with three bids and six meanings, and all your bids are 2NT and above (so not much room to unwind them). This will leave you hopelessly stuck on a substantial number of hands.

Assuming you want 2♣/2♦ GF, if you want your system to be ACBL general chart (so you can't use 2M jumps to show invitational notrump hands) then you're basically stuck with 2NT as meaning 1 (otherwise you have no bid with meaning 1). Probably the best you can do is something like:

2♣ = GF with clubs or GF balanced no major, meanings 2 and 9
2♦ = GF with diamonds, meaning 6
2♠ = Constructive or invitational diamond raise, meanings 4 and 5
2NT = INV balanced, meaning 1
3♣ = INV lots of ♣, meaning 8
3♦ = weak with ♦, meaning 3

With meaning 7 you end up just bidding 1NT. You're kind of stuck with this, since there are three "clubs" meanings and you've assigned GF to 2♣, and GCC won't let you assign a non-GF "clubs" meaning to any jump shift except 3♣.

This leaves 2♥ free to be reverse flannery or "strong jump shift in any suit" or whatever other meaning you prefer. Alternately you could take the "balanced GF" meaning out of 2♣ and use 2♥ to show that hand.

[Echognome]

mgoetze, on May 7 2007, 08:53 AM, said:

There is no perfect bidding system - they all have holes somewhere. For instance, most players of "Standard" bidding systems have a hole in their system when it comes to minimum openers with 5 hearts and 4 spades. They could play Flannery, but then they'd have a hole in their system when they hold a weak-2 in diamonds. Most relay systems have a hole when it comes to 9-card suits...

Not to mention plenty of invitational hands that are difficult to bid. You may play your relay as invitational or better, but then some of your partner's bids may put you in an impossible situation. I'll give you two examples and see if your relay could handle them.

Suppose you had a classic invitational jump shift hand, such as x Kxx xxx AKJTxx and partner opens 1♠ (or say he opens 1♥ showing spades). Now if you relay, partner may bid something like 3♦+ to show a single-suited hand with club shortness and now you are committed to game on a possible misfit. (if your partner makes some other bid for club shortness, I'm sure you can find the appropriate hand)

Now you say (like I would), but I have a gadget. With this hand I bid 3♣ to show an invitational jump shift. Then I will give you x xx KQTxx AQTxx and now things aren't so easy. You basically cannot cover all hands and all ranges.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise that every system has holes, just saying that the holes in relay system cover more than just 9 card suits.

[foo]

pbleighton, on May 6 2007, 07:54 AM, said:

If you play 1D-2C and 1D-2D as GF:

1. What's the best treatment for invitational hands without a 4 card major? If you play 1D-3C as a diamond raise, and 1D-2NT as balanced, what do you do with hands with 6+ clubs?

2. Can one or both contain a 4 card major?

Peter

I have a solution I've not seen in any books.

My simple approach is
1= 1D-2D shows Invite+, not GF (and NO, I do not require 5 card support...)
2= 1D-2C is considered GF =UNLESS= Responder rebids 2N.
This necessarily means that Opener has to careful not to rebid 2N or 3foo themselves w/o at least a medium strength opener.

I've found this to be particularly effective when combined with the idea that most of Opener's hand types w/o a 4 card Major rebid 2D!: 1D-2C;2D!

This system allows Responder to bid those icky 10-12 counts with long C's naturally; and seems to be the best solution out of all the ways I've tried thus far to deal with the problem.