[whereagles]

1. Since 2♠ shows 6+ cards and resp passed, there's no point in looking for a better fit, so dbl = PEN.

2. Since 3♣ shows 6+ cards, by the same token as above, dbl = PEN.

Simple

[Flame]

Intresting i would take both as penalty oriented meaning we are atronger then our opponenets hand i have a difensive hand usually something in thier suit.
I can understand the offesive double suggested by others but i think its a convention and not the normal way.

[FrancesHinden]

Poky, on Apr 20 2007, 04:55 PM, said:

T/O both.

The 2nd case shows a hand:
- with ~9-14 HCP,
- without heart stopper,
- with club honor (remember, partner didn't bid 3♥ but 3♣).

Say:
♠Kxx
♥xxx
♦Kxxx
♣Axx

If you play double as penalty, an easy 3NT will be missed when the balancer has something like:
♠Axx
♥Kx
♦x
♣KQJTxxx

Whenever it has sense that double is TO, double is TO!!!

This double cannot be penalty because the 3♣ bidder must double again with 6/7♣ and heart shortness.

While you are right that playing double as 9-14 HCP, without heart stopper, with club honour will work well on occasion, it seems a very narrow target to me.

I can buy the concept of playing double as 'random high cards don't know what to do' (although I had a unanimous vote of 'penalties' from all my normal partners) but specifically no heart honour, a top club honour, seems to be aiming at a very narrow target.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Apr 20 2007, 04:32 PM, said:

Of course knowing what you play is most important at always, but I find this treatment very unusual.

1♣ p 1♥ 1♠ DBL 2♠ p p, with double being a support double, playing a double as penalty here would be extremely strange to say the least, and I don't think you could convince me it's a good idea.

It is possible it is better playing double in this sequence as 'take-out', but having one rule for all these auctions works extremely well (the typical large penalty auction is something like 1S P 1NT P 2D 2H DOUBLE).

However, I don't think I'm losing by playing this double as penalties. Responder didn't want to act over 2S, so responder doesn't have a penalty double of spades, doesn't have game interest values, is unlikely to have five hearts or 5 clubs (unless very minimum). On what hand does opener want to act yet again with a double, rather than bidding (if he is say 3-6 in hearts and clubs)? He's 1345? He can bid 2NT - no need to double to protect partner's putative penalty.

OK, when I say 'penalty' on this auction, it isn't going to be a trump stack: with 4 good spades opener is more likely to have bid NT the previous round that make a support double. But a 3334 18-count or so with a trump trick seems reasonable. Responder can pull with a 1633 5-count (that didn't do a WJS or similar), but the point is that double implies high cards and spade length.