[the hog]

X for takeout - automatic with this hand.

[cherdano]

skaeran, on Apr 17 2007, 02:58 PM, said:

I guess the differing views here are based upon differing bidding methods.

In Europe many play 1♠-1NT as NF, and effectively denies a fit. So unless opener has a very long suit, we rate to have a misfit.

I didn't clarify methods, as Ulf didn't either, but I doubt this is enough to explain the difference. I don't think US players automatically assume 2/1, they play against SAYC often enough, even a forcing 1NT might deny a fit for some, and the higher upper limit of the forcing NT also makes it slightly more likely that you go for a number.
I agree double is slightly more attractive opposite a 2/1-style 1NT than a SAYC-style 1N, but I think the difference is small.

[jdonn]

1: Playing 1♠ p 1NT as non forcing doesn't mean it denies a fit. It means it effectively denies a SPADE fit. Big difference, as there can easily be a fit for them in diamonds or even one of the other suits here.

2: Not having a fit is not the same as having a misfit. A hand with a few 7 card fits is not a misfit. Misfit would mean a partnership has long suits in either hand opposite short suits in the other. Playing in a 7 card fit at the two level with something like half the deck is far from a disaster. 2/1 players make a good living doing just that.

3: Even if partner doesn't have a fit with us, he can often pass the double to good effect since the spades are offside for the opponents. Or maybe double the opponents when opener goes somewhere.

4: Important point that our longest suit is clubs. On the bad days that partner is some 4333 mess he will go to 2♣.

I haven't seen anything that convinces me pass has the slightest bit of sanity to it. Doubling isn't risk free, just as opening a strong notrump isn't risk free. When you have a hand worth showing that is easy to show, show it!

[mcphee]

Interesting posts from many players. I like to bid and often get in with many weaker hands.

Regardless of what 1NT shows, F or NF partner holds S most days, probally 4. Those who elect to dble with the hand I have this question to ask, What is the upside? Are we really getting a chance to play game is my first thought? I also failed to note any notations from players that they may go minus 800, isn't that possible?

I consider myself quite aggressive, but color me chicken here, I think the downside is too great. I would not be pleased to come back to partners with minus 800 on this hand. Even given the light initial action players come up with today, I think it is possible to face a possible healthy minus with this hand, I am not willing to risk that.

I would not make a big complaint if someone bid,

[Halo]

I'm passing and not backing in. I do come from a Bridge culture where 1NT is non-forcing <3 spades - so the likelihood of a misfit is already high.

[Flame]

I thought the double is obvious but after reading ulf i think his point make sense and im not sure this is the so obvious anymore. I think if someone will run a simulation you will find that there is more then 50% of misfit here.

[whereagles]

Not sure what the simulations would say, but one thing is certain: if you want to act, do it before opps exchanged information and at the lowest level possible. To dbl 2nd round violates these two principles and is bound to get you into trouble oh-so-often.

[Codo]

I don´t buy yet that double is clear cut:

What hand types do they have?

1.Lets assume that opener has a one suiter. In this case our double does not help us in any way. He will bid spades again, so after 1 Spade pass 1 NT pass 2 Spade, pd will know, that we have more or less this hand, no difference between X and pass.

2. Lets assume opener has a two suiter and the bidding goes 1 Spade pass 1 NT 2 any pass pass. What did I miss by passing? Do I belive, that the bidding will be more successful after 1 Spade pass 1 NT x? Why?

3. Opener has a balanced 12-14 and passes 1 NTX If the hand belongs to us, pd can pass too and we may collect 200 instead 100. We gave away the distribution of our hands, so maybe we will even get -380 instead of + 100.

4. Opener has a strong balanced hand. Now I have real trouble after a double. PD has 4-5 spades, they have the majority of the strength, we have no fit. No good idea to double.

Of course there are hands where X will win too, but I am not yet convinced that it will win imps in the long run.

I would like to see a simulation or a bridge brower result too, but this is maybe hard to be done.

[awm]

To answer Codo's questions:

1: If opener is rebidding spades, partner will not know that we have this hand. Suppose the auction goes 1♠-pass-1nt-pass-2♠. The opening side's spade fit could easily be anywhere from six cards (6-0) to 9 cards (7-2). If partner holds some moderate number of spades (say 3) he has no idea whether opponents are playing in a 6-0 or 6-1 (where he should definitely pass) or in a 7-2 (where he almost surely should bid). The double clues partner in as to our spade shortage. Partner also in the dark about our values.. say after 1♠-pass-1nt-pass-2♠ partner has a moderate hand with five good spades. He can see 3-4 tricks on defense, but it takes six tricks to beat 2♠ and if both opponents are on a maximum for their bids there is no guarantee partner will provide the remainder. The double of 1nt allows the spade-holder to double for penalty.

2: If opener has a two-suiter, it could easily be that both sides have a big fit. The 1NT bidder could have all sorts of support for opener's second suit. Or it could be that the hand is not much of a fit. We want partner to compete in the first case, and to double if he has good values in the second (opponents could easily have 18 hcp between them or even less, given how light people open two-suited hands these days). Doubling 1nt helps partner make these decisions. If we passed 1nt, we might be able to double back in later, but this doesn't necessarily promise length in opener's second suit (making it hard for partner to leave the double in on a moderate hand with 3 cards in opener's second suit). Also if opponents have a real fit then doubling in at second turn may be at the three-level, and it's always potentially more dangerous.

3: Yes sometimes the opponents will make 1NTX, or we will run somewhere and get hammered. On the other hand, suppose the auction had gone 1nt (12-14)-pass-pass. How many of us would not want to balance with this hand? We could have the majority of the strength. We could have a heart game. Honestly the auction give is not that different. It's also quite possible that opponents have a big fit in diamonds that they have missed (say opener is 5-3-3-2 and responder is 2-2-6-3). If we sell to 1NT it could easily make. If we double 1NT, partner will bid hearts and opponents may not even compete to 3♦ (or may not make it if they do).

4: Yes if opener has a strong balanced hand we can be in trouble. But fortunately, more and more people open 1nt with strong balanced hands including a five-card major. Opener's odds of having a really huge balanced hand just aren't that good with us holding 12 hcp. And it's still quite possible we have an 8-card fit somewhere and a good sacrifice at the two-level against a game the opponents can probably make.

[whereagles]

awm, on Apr 18 2007, 11:58 PM, said:

3: Yes sometimes the opponents will make 1NTX, or we will run somewhere and get hammered.

getting axed in 2-something is better than in 3-something ^^