[Apollo81]

Red/Red, IMPs

AKQJ9
A1075
84
63

I am hesitant to post this because the auction is non-standard and I don't want to hear the usual round of "in my system I would do this" or complaints about the methods, but here goes:

1♦(1) - 1♠
2♥(2) - 3♥(3)
4♣(4) - ???

(1) catchall (no 5M or some minor oriented hands) 11-15 bid
(2) x4y5+, 14-15 HCP, x & y < 4
(3) natural and GF
(4) non-serious control-showing

(.A.) Do you agree with 3♥? If not, how would your auction go after this playing Lebensohl in this auction (similarly to after a reverse in Standard methods).
(.B.) What now? I believe the options are:
B1: 4♦. Not sure how this would be taken.
B2: 4♥. To play and certainly would be passed.
B3: 4♠. RKC
B4: 4NT. This is a spade control-showing bid (aka cuebid)

I would probably choose 4NT.

[inquiry]

A... . absolutely, totally agree with 3♥ if GF.

B.... What next? 4♦
Ok, so 1♦ is limited to 15 so this is forcing club type auction, and as I understand it, 2♥ is not only a reverse showing maximum, but also showing good shape. The good shape here includes 5♣ (I guess with five clubs and a four card major you do not open 2♣ as in precision of yester-year).

I would not bid 4♠ RKCB as I looked and looked and I could not see a diamond control anywhere in my hand. I am also not too fond of the concept of cue-bidding the spade controls despite the fact that is an amazing suit.... because, to be honest, it seems that bid will force us to the five level, which may, or may not be all that safe.

Partner denied "slam" interest despite having a max. Can we draw inference? I would draw the inference that he is not void in diamonds or spades, and is probably not singleton in them either. So I guess I would think he is 2-4-2-5. However, experience with him might have shown he could be 1-4-3-5 and issue a "not interested" out of fear of wrong short suit. Not me, when I maximum with a good fit, I would use serious 3NT.

So partner is looking at some non-descript 2-4-2-5 hand with no honor in spades. So his 14 to 15 hcp are made up from among these cards H-KQJ D-AKQJ C-AKQJ. That is 26 points, which means he is missing at least 11 of those. I don't know, but I am not getting too excited. Of course if he has "the right" 14 we have slam chances. What is the right 14? Diamond ACE (so diamond losers from his hand can go on my spades). Sufficient hearts to have a reasonable play for no losers there (KQxx), that is 9. The rest need to be in his club suit. Club AQ would give us a reasonable shot at slam with chances even if the hook is off. And if he had KQJ of clubs, we surely want to take a shot at slam.

Looking at my hand, I can't tell if he has an appropriate hand to make a move toward slam (first round control in diamonds, good clubs, two honors in hearts). But you know what? He can tell, all he has to do is look in his hand. So I like 4♦ here as last train. This will, in EFFECT cue-bid 4♠ (if you lack a spade control, you will of course have signed off). This also shows uncertaintly about going past 4♥ while keeping slam options alive. Partner will value like gold top heart honors (KQ!!!) diamond ACE, and quality cards in clubs. I can not imagine if partner held the magic ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Ax ♣KQJxx or ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Ax ♣AQxxx he will be signing off after LTTC 4♦ bid.

[Free]

If you can show a ♠ cue and no ♦ cue, I would choose that bid. So either 4♦ or 4NT is my preference. 4♦ as last train would be handy, but if you don't have a clear agreement about such situations I wouldn't bid it.

[skjaeran]

Agree with Ben's analysis above.
I'd also bid 4♦ (last train).

[jdonn]

skaeran, on Apr 11 2007, 02:16 PM, said:

Agree with Ben's analysis above.
I'd also bid 4♦ (last train).

Sounds good. 4♦ merely promises spade control (since partner denied it), is ambiguous about diamond control, and invites slam. If partner also lacks diamond control but feels good enough to move (possible but unlikely) then he will probably bid 5♣ and I will sign off. I'm not too worried about the 5 level in that case since he will have everything in hearts and clubs, something like xx KQxx xx AKQxx.

[FrancesHinden]

.A. I think I agree with 3H, but if I could bid 2S forcing over 2H, it's quite tempting.

Partner has shown 4 hearts, 5+ clubs, 14-15 points - that seems pretty precise to start with. And in addition he is now distinguishing between a 'serious' 4C bid and a 'non-serious' bid. Well, once he is making a control-showing bid anyway, we are really splitting hairs between what makes his hand 'serious' or 'non-serious'.

I'm not familiar with such subtleties, but really the only thing I can see that should make a difference is the quality of his trumps. I think that makes him likely to have bad trumps, and hence I don't think we are making a heart slam.

I don't play last train, so I wouldn't bid 4D here (how are we supposed to find out if we have a diamond control or not?). I would sign off smoothly with 4H. While I can construct 14/15-point hands where slam is making, they are rarely better then 3-2 trumps (xx KJxx Ax AQJxx is a mountain opposite and slam is poor).

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 11 2007, 04:03 PM, said:

While I can construct 14/15-point hands where slam is making, they are rarely better then 3-2 trumps (xx KJxx Ax AQJxx is a mountain opposite and slam is poor).

Doesn't slam looks pretty good opposite that? On a diamond lead lets take the simple line of playing AK of hearts then running spades to pitch the diamond (there may be something better but I won't go into it). Then (ignorring any terrible breaks) we make if the heart queen falls doubleton, or the club finesse works combined with the heart queen having 2+ spades. Looks like about 60% to me.

[whereagles]

Excuse me, but where's the problem? I seem to count 12 or 13 tricks... 4NT and then bid 6 or 7.

[Free]

whereagles, on Apr 11 2007, 11:04 PM, said:

Excuse me, but where's the problem? I seem to count 12 or 13 tricks... 4NT and then bid 6 or 7.

LOL, your opponents might as well count to 2 tricks in ♦... Good luck making 12-13 tricks after such a start!

[effervesce]

Quote

Looking at my hand, I can't tell if he has an appropriate hand to make a move toward slam (first round control in diamonds, good clubs, two honors in hearts). But you know what? He can tell, all he has to do is look in his hand. So I like 4♦ here as last train. This will, in EFFECT cue-bid 4♠ (if you lack a spade control, you will of course have signed off). This also shows uncertaintly about going past 4♥ while keeping slam options alive. Partner will value like gold top heart honors (KQ!!!) diamond ACE, and quality cards in clubs. I can not imagine if partner held the magic ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Ax ♣KQJxx or ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Ax ♣AQxxx he will be signing off after LTTC 4♦ bid.

Erm... in the auction 4♣ was a NON-SERIOUS cuebid-with either of those golden hands you gave I'm sure a serious 3NT would have been bid.

The 3♥ raise already shows slam interest (since 4H could have been bid instead) - you dont really have extra extra slam interest-4♥ over the 4♣ cue would be my choice.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Apr 11 2007, 09:09 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Apr 11 2007, 04:03 PM, said:

While I can construct 14/15-point hands where slam is making, they are rarely better then 3-2 trumps (xx KJxx Ax AQJxx is a mountain opposite and slam is poor).

Doesn't slam looks pretty good opposite that? On a diamond lead lets take the simple line of playing AK of hearts then running spades to pitch the diamond (there may be something better but I won't go into it). Then (ignorring any terrible breaks) we make if the heart queen falls doubleton, or the club finesse works combined with the heart queen having 2+ spades. Looks like about 60% to me.

OK, I can rephrase a bit. 60% seems over generous as if hearts are 4-1 you are off most of the time, so let's say

Slam is only just with the odds opposite that hand, and it's a 5-control monster which wouldn't have bid 4C non-serious.

[FrancesHinden]

whereagles, on Apr 11 2007, 10:04 PM, said:

Excuse me, but where's the problem? I seem to count 12 or 13 tricks... 4NT and then bid 6 or 7.

Really? Which 12 or 13 are they?

Let's give partner a diamond control, which there is no certainty he has (xx KQJx Qx AKxxx is a healthy 15-count).

If he has 3 key cards plus the Queen of trumps - which you will need to bid 7 - that gives him roughly

xx KQxx Ax A????

Even if hearts are 3-2, I am struggling to see where 13 tricks come from (5 hearts, 5 spades, two minor suit aces) so it's not going to be better than a finesse plus 3-2 hearts if he has a minor suit queen as well.

The best chance of slam is the diamond control being a small singleton, which gives him space to have high cards in clubs and hearts (xx KQJx x AKJxxx) but that doesn't look like a non-serious 4C to me.

[P_Marlowe]

A ) of course, you want to play game
and slam is possible
B ) 4H, I dont have the power to force
to the 5 level facing a more or less forced
cue, but it depends on how much opener
was forced to make the cue, ... for me
it would be 100%

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: You have a 6 looser hand, a strong NT usually
has 6, hence means that a 14-15count has approx.
6 1/2, I would assume, that with a golden 14-15count
opener holds a 6 looser or even only 5 hand and would
make a stronger move.
The LTC seldom underbids, which means 11 tricks
should be the usual limit.

[whereagles]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 12 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

Really? Which 12 or 13 are they?

Scoring: IMP

---

That looks like an ok grand to me: 5 spades, 4 hearts + 1 ruff, 2 diams, 1 club = 13. After 4NT, if a keycard is missing I'll bid 6. Else 7 or some other grand slam try.

Pard has reversed, for heaven's sake. What do you expect him to have instead?

xx
KQxx
QJxxx
AK

Sure, that's possible, but is a very unusual hand. I won't risk any mixups when I can take charge with minimal risk.

[P_Marlowe]

whereagles, on Apr 12 2007, 05:58 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Apr 12 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

Really? Which 12 or 13 are they?

Scoring: IMP

---

That looks like an ok grand to me: 5 spades, 4 hearts + 1 ruff, 2 diams, 1 club = 13. After 4NT, if a keycard is missing I'll bid 6. Else 7 or some other grand slam try.

Pard has reversed, for heaven's sake. What do you expect him to have instead?

xx
KQxx
QJxxx
AK

Sure, that's possible, but is a very unusual hand. I won't risk any mixups when I can take charge with minimal risk.

Ok, but assuming the OP got it
right, opener holds 14-15, not
16HCP.
And even if the hand falls in the
14-15 group, the hand is certainly
max. for the class of those hands.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

whereagles, on Apr 12 2007, 10:58 AM, said:

Pard has reversed, for heaven's sake. What do you expect him to have instead?

Read the original post. We're playing a limited opening system, and partner has shown 14-15 HCP at most, with a non-serious slam try in that context.

[whereagles]

Ok, I hadn't noticed opener was limited. Still, I think 4NT followed by 5 or 6♥ is quite clear-cut. Serious or no serious.

[inquiry]

effervesce, on Apr 11 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

Quote

Looking at my hand, I can't tell if he has an appropriate hand to make a move toward slam (first round control in diamonds, good clubs, two honors in hearts). But you know what? He can tell, all he has to do is look in his hand. So I like 4♦ here as last train. This will, in EFFECT cue-bid 4♠ (if you lack a spade control, you will of course have signed off). This also shows uncertaintly about going past 4♥ while keeping slam options alive. Partner will value like gold top heart honors (KQ!!!) diamond ACE, and quality cards in clubs. I can not imagine if partner held the magic ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Ax ♣KQJxx or ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Ax ♣AQxxx he will be signing off after LTTC 4♦ bid.

Erm... in the auction 4♣ was a NON-SERIOUS cuebid-with either of those golden hands you gave I'm sure a serious 3NT would have been bid.

The 3♥ raise already shows slam interest (since 4H could have been bid instead) - you dont really have extra extra slam interest-4♥ over the 4♣ cue would be my choice.

After showing maximum hand, SERIOUS would include distributional value I think. That is, a singleton or void somewhere. To really get into figuring out what type hands opener can hold, how does he open when 3-4-1-5 (the old precision 2♦ bid), or 4-4-0-5.

I think after showing 4-5 and 14/15, a serious 3NT would include something like SIX CLUBS (and thus obviously a short suit somewhere) or at the least 5431 distribution. I mean, he has already told us about having 54 and the hcp. To get serious he needs something extra, and with a 2 hcp range and known main suit shape (45), the extra has to be extra legnth or at least shortness. At least in my humble opinion.

[Edmunte1]

One question: 2♥ rebid promises 5♦ or any 5 card minor? If any, can you find out which one ?

[inquiry]

Edmunte1, on Apr 12 2007, 08:24 AM, said:

One question: 2♥ rebid promises 5♦ or any 5 card minor? If any, can you find out which one ?

I think many or most of us are working under the assumption it shows 5 clubs, due to this line in the original post...

(2) x4y5+, 14-15 HCP, x & y < 4

We think he would have said x4(y5) if it was either minor and x45y if it had to be diamonds.

In fact, I considered that perhaps six clubs is excluded (so no x4y6 are possible) as that might open 2C, but the methods are not given (intentionally so it seems). Which made my original answer a bit longer than it needed to be.