[effervesce]

North (dealer) ♠AT4 ♥A ♦KJT32 ♣AKQJ

South ♠K86 ♥QT94 ♦- ♣T98643

No interference in bidding.

Using moscito relays (hidden text below):

Spoiler

1C (15+) 1H (3-5QP, balanced may have 5 card major or unbal no 5 card major)
1S = 12+QP relay 2C = singlesuited clubs or 5+ clubs with 4 card major or three-suited with clubs
2D = relay 2H = 5+ clubs 4 heart
2S = relay 3S = 3406 shape
4C = QP ask 4D = 3QP
4H = initiate denial cuebidding 4S = no A/K/Q honour in clubs
4NT = continue denial cuebidding 5H: 1 A/K/Q honour in hearts, 1 A/K/Q honour in spades, no 2nd A/K/Q honour in hearts

North now bids 6C! since he knows south has a K in one major and a Q in the other major-doesnt matter which in which major. And yes we did bid this and no other pair managed to find it

[akhare]

effervesce, on Apr 10 2007, 10:41 PM, said:

North (dealer) ♠AT4 ♥A ♦KJT32 ♣AKQJ

South ♠K86 ♥QT94 ♦- ♣T98643

No interference in bidding.

Using moscito relays (hidden text below):

Here's a sequence using a similar symmetric relay scheme:

1♣ - 1♦ 16+ artificial forcing; 0-7
1♥ - 2♦ 18+ artificial forcing; 5-7 w/ 4+♥
2♥ - 2N Relay; ♥+♣
3♣ - 3♦ Relay; Only 4♥ (reversor)
3♥ - 4N Relay; 3-4-0-6 exactly w/ 1 control
6♣

[Impact]

If vul:-

1C= 16+ 1D=0-7 any, 8-9bal or 20+
1H= 19/20+ 1NT=5-7, 4+H
2C= relay 2H= 4+C not bal, <4S
2S= relay 2NT=4H & 5+C
3C=relay 4C= 3-4-0-6 or 2-4-0-7
4D= control ask 4S=K
6C


If n/v and HUM permitted:-

P=0-4 OR 16+ 1C=0-7/8-9 bal OR 20+
1D=0-4 OR 19+ 1S=5-7, 4+H not flat
1NT=relayGF 2D=4+H, 4+C
2H=relay 2S=4H & 5+C
2NT=relay 3NT=3-4-0-6
4C= control ask 4H= K
6C

Any symmetric relay system makes it easy as should ANY system which allows you to locate at least 6C in responding hand.

regards

[effervesce]

To Impact and Akhare:

Both those symmetric relay systems appear to use A/K controls (A = 2, K=1 controls) and thus appear to be UNABLE to discover if a grand can be made if both the KQ in South's hand are in the same major eg if South's hand was either
♠KQ6 ♥T943 ♦- ♣T98643 or ♠986 ♥KQT9 ♦- ♣T98643
(which moscito, which uses queen points (A=3QP, K=2, Q=1) can find with the aid of denial cuebids - though you could just have added a denial cuebidding sequence to those systems and the right spot should be found.

But for the hand I gave yes symmetric relay systems seem to find the slam =)
Any non-relay systems up for the challenge to reach 6C?

[chicken]

1♦-1♥
3♣-4♣
4♦(RKCB) -4♥ (0-3)
6♣

[Gerben42]

Mod. Fantunes as played by Ampelman & Gerben42:

Quote

North (dealer) ♠AT4 ♥A ♦KJT32 ♣AKQJ

South ♠K86 ♥QT94 ♦- ♣T98643

1♦ (13+, 4+♦ unbalanced and forcing)
- 1♠ (4+♥, any strength)
1NT (18+ any)
- 3♣ (3 - 5 with long ♣)
4♣ (fit and slam interest)
- 4♦ (control)
4♥ (control)
- 4♠ (control)
6♣ (slam is at worst on a ♦ finesse)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am not sure, that you will reach 6C playing
standard, I am torn between 1D and 2C.
If 2C is already game forcing, than 1D.

After a nonforcing 1D opener responder may
pass, I am pretty sure, I would, if not, than
you may reach 6C, because after opener makes
a jump rebid of 3C, responder can show the king
of spades. The only minus thing is the heart
shortage.

If one opens 2C, one probably will end up in 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Edmunte1]

1♦ ---- 1♥
2♣(1)-- 4♣(2)
4♥(3)---4♠(3)
6♣

(1) natural 5+♦+4+♣, 11-21
(2) shape invitation, max 8 hcp
(3) cue-bids

[MarceldB]

effervesce, on Apr 11 2007, 07:37 AM, said:

Both those symmetric relay systems appear to use A/K controls (A = 2, K=1 controls) and thus appear to be UNABLE to discover if a grand can be made if both the KQ in South's hand are in the same major eg if South's hand was either
♠KQ6 ♥T943 ♦- ♣T98643 or ♠986 ♥KQT9 ♦- ♣T98643
(which moscito, which uses queen points (A=3QP, K=2, Q=1) can find.

Can be solved too with Italian responses of a Suit asking bid (non or KQ, Q or AK, K or AQ, Ace only, AKQ, AKQJ)

as practiced underneath in combination with a previous control asking bid:

• Pass= 13+ any shape
2♣ = singl/void ♦, L=♣ or 4441/5?440, 6-11p.(Ace only or King+any Q= 6-pointer too)
• 2♦= relay
2NT= 4c♥, 5431 +/- , or 64 with a minimum
• 3♠= Control Asking Bid
3NT= A and/or K ♠
• 4♣= distribution relay
4NT= 3=4=0=6, 0/5 Aces (♣ as trump)
• 5♦= Suit asking Bid ♥
5♠= Q♥ (or AK not possible now because of 0 Aces)
• 5NT= Suit Asking Bid ♠
6♣ = King ♠ only (0 Aces already mentioned, thus ♠ control was the King
so no need now to specify again)
• Pass

Regards,
Marcel

[jchiu]

Quote

North (dealer) ♠AT4 ♥A ♦KJT32 ♣AKQJ

South ♠K86 ♥QT94 ♦- ♣T98643

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1NT
2♣ - 2♥
2♠ - 2NT
3♣ - 3NT
4♣ - 4♦
4♥ - 4♠
4NT - 5♥
6♣ - Pass

1♣ Strong Club, 16+ HCP
1♦ Negative Response 0-7 HCP (sometimes a bad 8 HCP)
1♥ Relay, usually 19+ HCP
1NT 4+♥, may be canape
2♣ Relay, as are all of opener's bids except the last
2♥ 4+♣, unbalanced, relative length still not known
2NT Reverser, exactly 4♥, 5+♣
3NT 3=4=0=6 shape
4♦ One control in response to the 4♣ strong relay
4♠ Denies a top club honor
5♥ Shows a top heart honor, a top spade honor, denies ♣J

6♣ Places the contract, since ♠ xxx ♥ KQxx ♦ -- ♣ 10xxxxx is now impossible, and responder cannot have both major suit kings from 4♦. However, it is not known which major suit king responder holds (and which major suit queen). Note that the spiral scan used the queen rule, which regarded high honor as queen or higher, beginning with the first suit scanned, clubs.

[whereagles]

1♣ 1♥
2♦ 2♥
3♦ 3NT
pass

1♣ = polish style
2♦ = art, gf
2♥ = art, weakish hand 5-8

[helene_t]

Neanderthal SA:
1♦-1♥
3♣-5♣
6♣-pass

Neanderthal Precision:
1♣-1♦
1♥(art.force)-2♣(semipos)
4♣-5♦(XRKCB)
5♥(4)-5♠(Q?)
5NT(yes but no kings)-6♣
pass

The latter auction is not good. We could have missed 7, and that's because the weak hand took captainship. Treating 4♣ as minorwood would have been better. Or using asking bids, of course.

[Gerben42]

Quote

1♣ 1♥
2♦ 2♥
3♦ 3NT
pass

1♣ = polish style
2♦ = art, gf
2♥ = art, weakish hand 5-8

Err... what system is this? Esp. the 2♦ rebid is NOT Polish ♣, which would bid:

1♣ (could be weak, could be strong...)
- 1♦ (even if you think it's worth a 7+ positive you have no rebid)
1♠ (urgs, yet no other choice)
- 2♣ (I've got ♣ and I'm weak)
3♥ (Splinter - wow this horrible bidding problem got easier very quickly!)
- *** Enter your slam bidding auction here ***

[Antoine Fourrière]

1♦ 1♥
1♠ 1N
2♠ 3♣
3♠ 5♣
6♣

1♦: unbalanced with diamonds (could be a minimum canapé in clubs)
1♥: no FIVE-card major, 5+ HCP
1♠: five diamonds, four cards in another suit. (1N would show a three-suiter with clubs, 2♣ a canapé into clubs, 2♥/2♠ a three-suiter without clubs, 2N/3♣ five cards in each minor and the other bids would be one-suiters.)
1N: 5-10. Opener must bid again with a major
2♠: 18(17)+ with four clubs (2♣ spades, 2♦/2♥ hearts and 2N 16(17) with clubs and a major singleton)
3♣: NF (2N or 3♦ would be also NF).
3♠: fragment
5♣: to play (weaker than 4♣).
6♣: to play.

[akhare]

effervesce, on Apr 11 2007, 12:37 AM, said:

To Impact and Akhare:

Both those symmetric relay systems appear to use A/K controls (A = 2, K=1 controls) and thus appear to be UNABLE to discover if a grand can be made if both the KQ in South's hand are in the same major eg if South's hand was either
♠KQ6 ♥T943 ♦- ♣T98643 or ♠986 ♥KQT9 ♦- ♣T98643

I think there was a discussion a while back on the relative merits of QPs (A=3, K=2, Q=1) vs. controls (A=2, K=1) and the consensus was that QPs are superior method.

In conjunction with the latest Moscito 1♦ positive (and other SP responses), they are probably the best symmetric relay based strong 1♣ response structure, but adopting anything new takes time and effort ...

[the hog]

Well Atul, actually you can use both Relay points, (A,K,Q controls), (they are not called Q points), AND Slam points, (A,K controls).
Relay points is step one after shape, control points is step 2. Marston doesn't use this latter method. He uses 4D as the end signal and all else sets longest, 2nd longest suits etc and is RKCB. There are a number of variants of RKC depending on whom you ask - some play step 1 min hand for the range, some don't.

After RPoints, the next step is Denial Cue bidding, and again there are various methods played. Personally I like the following with 3 suited hands:
step 1 = something in all or all in 1
2 = all in 1 & 2
3 all in 1 & 3
4 all in 2 & 3
The numbers above refer to longest, 2nd longest suits etc. (Marston no longer plays this method btw, but I have bid many '00s of hands testing this and regard it saving a step fairly often.).

[whereagles]

Gerben42, on Apr 11 2007, 01:21 PM, said:

Quote

1♣ 1♥
2♦ 2♥
3♦ 3NT
pass

1♣ = polish style
2♦ = art, gf
2♥ = art, weakish hand 5-8

Err... what system is this?

My own pet system where 1♣ = nat 11-20 or an acol 2 or better hand.

[inquiry]

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2NT
4♣ - 4♠
6♣ - Pass

Where 2♣ is cole like. Opener can have several hand types, all strong, but never 5-5 or better in both minors (because I play MisIry with strong 5-5 two suiters), never 4+♠, never 4+♥s (because I reverse into 2♠ with 4♠ and use an artificial jump rebid of 2NT to show strong hands with 4+♥ support). The bid can only be passed with a bust hand and loads of clubs and even then only rarely.

2NT is lebehnshol like, showing either a weak hand with a real club suit or an invitiational hand with ♦ support, or a balanced slam try hand with clubs as a second suit.

4♣ is game-force opposite a weak hand with clubs, and almost virtual slam force opposite any of the game invite or better included in the 2NT response

4♠ here is a cue-bid, it does not deny a diamond control, as 4♦ would set trumps and show the hand was one of the game invite hands with diamonds.

6♣ is end of story.

BTW, for those who consider ZAR points, WEST might bid 6♣ over 4♣. He has 22 ZAR points and in support of clubs he has a super fit. There are +1 more for the club Ten, at least +5 for the void in diamonds opposite partners known 5+ diamonds, and at least plus three more for the known minimum difference in major legnths (opener has to be have no more than 4 major cards, and west has 7 of them for a difference of 3). So 22 + 1 + min of 8 = 31 ZARS and partners jump to 4♣ is GF opposite anything with a real club suit that would not pass 2♣ so it has to be ZAR monster of at least 40 Zar points. 40+31 = 71 ZARS, that is grand slam area. In fact, opener had 43 Zar points.

[akhare]

The_Hog, on Apr 11 2007, 09:06 PM, said:

Relay points is step one after shape, control points is step 2. Marston doesn't use this latter method. He uses 4D as the end signal and all else sets longest, 2nd longest suits etc and is RKCB.

IIRC Richard's Moscito 2000 document described a scheme similar to Martson's methods. Basically, 1st step = RPs, 4♦ = terminator puppet and step+n = various RKCs based on length -- right?

[skjaeran]

Quote

North (dealer) ♠AT4 ♥A ♦KJT32 ♣AKQJ
South ♠K86 ♥QT94 ♦- ♣T98643

2♣ - 2NT
4♣ - 4♦
4♥ - 4♠
4NT - 5♦
6♣

2NT=6+♣, 0+hcp
4♣=slammish
Rest=cuebids and 1430 RKCB