[Free]

I read in Fred's articles about improving 2/1 GF to play 1M-2NT as natural GF, which can contain a 3 card support for opener's Major. I was wondering what the best continuations are. There seem to be several handtypes that need to be handled:
- finding stoppers in all suits to find 3NT
- 6 card M with extra's (minimum can probably just bid 4M)
- 5-4 with extra's
- 5-5
- 4 card OM (only needed after 1♠ opening I think)

Does anyone know what Fred suggests? Or do you have something of your own?

(I'm just too lazy at the moment)

[kenrexford]

When I years ago played precision with a young guy from DC, he used to call a Standard American 2NT opening "Strong, balanced, and preemptive."

It sure does sound like this 2NT call could be alerted as "Game-Forcing, Balanced, and Preemptive."

[gwnn]

kenrexford, on Apr 3 2007, 07:49 PM, said:

When I years ago played precision with a young guy from DC, he used to call a Standard American 2NT opening "Strong, balanced, and preemptive."

It sure does sound like this 2NT call could be alerted as "Game-Forcing, Balanced, and Preemptive."

No joke, 2NT is quite preemptive - strong ♣ opener allows many evil lead directing interventions, for instance. Yes it kills slams also and 2NT is the least favorite contract (well runner up to 5NT). But it has certainly some preemption to it

That said, 1M-2NT doesn't really pre-empt anything, if we already have 25+HCP on the line.

[kenrexford]

A quite humorous tale on that note.

As you know, some play 2NT as 19+ to 21, 20-21, 21-22, 22-23, whatever. But, one could arguably believe that 19+ to 21 is a "weak" 2NT opening.

Sooo, a strange-minded friend of mine was playing with a brilliant friend of mine. The strange-minded friend (let's call him Mike) heard 2NT to his right, found the range to be weak (relatively speaking), and decided that Cappelletti must be the agreement. So, he overcalled 3♦ for the majors.

This was doubled. The brilliant friend decided to pass, and Opener passed, and Mike now bid 3♠ (thinking that the pass asked him to pick).

The brilliant friend smelled a rat. With 4-1 in the majors, he corrected to 4♥, which was doubled and made.

Those damned preempts!!!

[fred]

Free, on Apr 3 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

I read in Fred's articles about improving 2/1 GF to play 1M-2NT as natural GF, which can contain a 3 card support for opener's Major.  I was wondering what the best continuations are.  There seem to be several handtypes that need to be handled:
- finding stoppers in all suits to find 3NT
- 6 card M with extra's (minimum can probably just bid 4M)
- 5-4 with extra's
- 5-5
- 4 card OM (only needed after 1♠ opening I think)

Does anyone know what Fred suggests?  Or do you have something of your own?

(I'm just too lazy at the moment) 

The way I play opener responds naturally:

3NT="You should seriously consider passing if you are 4333 even though we have an 8-card major suit fit. If it looks right you can Pass with 4432 as well.". Typically opener would be 5332 to make this call.

New suit="I have 4+ cards in this suit. We probably don't want to play 3NT if we have an 8-card major suit fit. Do you have 3-card support for my major?".

Rebid of suit=6+ cards

Jumps in new suit=auto-splinter (mild slam try with long major and shortness in suit bid)

Jump to game of major opened: attempt to sign off

For whatever its worth, nowadays I am much more inclined to make 2/1s on some of the hands I bid 2NT with at the time I wrote the articles in question (10+ years ago I think).

Not sure if I mention this in that article or elsewhere, but natural 2NT works better if you use a split range - something like 13 to 15 or 19+. If 2NT is 13+ you are going to have problems.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pbleighton]

"Not sure if I mention this in that article or elsewhere, but natural 2NT works better if you use a split range - something like 13 to 15 or 19+. If 2NT is 13+ you are going to have problems."

Fred, what do you do with 16-18? Do you bid 3NT, or make a 2/1?

Peter

[fred]

pbleighton, on Apr 3 2007, 10:47 PM, said:

"Not sure if I mention this in that article or elsewhere, but natural 2NT works better if you use a split range - something like 13 to 15 or 19+. If 2NT is 13+ you are going to have problems."

Fred, what do you do with 16-18? Do you bid 3NT, or make a 2/1?

Peter

I would typically make a 2/1, but I would be more aggressive than usual about downgrading some 16s or upgrading some 18s for the purposes of sympliflying the auction via a 2NT response.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

fred, on Apr 3 2007, 05:07 PM, said:

For whatever its worth, nowadays I am much more inclined to make 2/1s on some of the hands I bid 2NT with at the time I wrote the articles in question (10+ years ago I think).

I am curious both as to what sort of hands you changed your mind about (5332 with bad 5 card suits maybe?) and why you think you changed. I have always thought the auctions starting with a natural 2NT response tend to work out quite well.

[fred]

jdonn, on Apr 3 2007, 11:08 PM, said:

fred, on Apr 3 2007, 05:07 PM, said:

For whatever its worth, nowadays I am much more inclined to make 2/1s on some of the hands I bid 2NT with at the time I wrote the articles in question (10+ years ago I think).

I am curious both as to what sort of hands you changed your mind about (5332 with bad 5 card suits maybe?) and why you think you changed. I have always thought the auctions starting with a natural 2NT response tend to work out quite well.

Here is a hand I had in the Vanderbilt a few weeks ago:

109x
QJx
10xx
AKQx

My partner opened 1H and I responded 2C (GF).

Imagine that!

Not sure what I would have bid 10+ years ago, but probably not 2C.

There are some non-obvious consequences to this style. For example, you might want to stop playing "Serious 3NT" in some 2/1 auctions if you routinely make 2/1s with 4333 hands.

On the above hand, for example, the auction continued (all by us) 2D-2H-2NT-3NT (not Serious) - the auction didn't stop there but that is not the point. The point is that it is more important to cater to 3NT if you make 2/1s with balanced hands.

If I had to generalize about this change in attitude about 2/1 vs. 2NT I would say:

Nowadays I am more inclined to make a 2/1 (versus 2NT) with a balanced hand that doesn't feel notrumpy whereas there was a time in which I would more or less blindly respond 2NT on such hands.

It is kind of like responding to 1C when you are 3343. You can bid whatever number of notrump your hand is worth, but you can always respond 1D if you judge that your partner, if anyone, should be playing notrump.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[han]

Arend and I have recently spent a fair amount of time on similar auctions. We got a lot of help from jlall and jdonn, but any stupid comments that follow are due to my interpretation, not their suggestions.

We play that 1M-2C is a catch all bid and that 1M-2C-2X-2NT shows a balanced hand and may contain 3-card support (2X is generally not natural but I don't want to talk much about that in this post). We can jump to 3NT with some hands but we generally do not do this with 3-card support.

Our follow ups are very much like Fred's. Here are some additions.

3 of a new suit is natural, responder will almost always show 3-card support for opener's major. Over an auction like 1M-2C-2D (artificial) - 2NT - 3m, responder's raise to 4m shows a very strong hand. With a minimum and a good fit for the minor responder can bid 3oM.

Serious 3NT implications (actually, we play frivolous 3NT but that doesn't matter):

- Serious 3NT is OFF if opener has started to pattern out (but has not finished this) and has already said something about his strength. This will almost always be the case for us (for example, 1M-2C-2D shows a minimum, most higher bids show maximum). In this case opener's next bid shows shape.

-Serious 3NT is ON if opener has completed patterning out, or if opener has said nothing about his strength.

Some examples:

1S-2C (3-way bid)
2D (minimum) - 2NT (gameforcing balanced)
3C (natural) - 3S (promises 3-card support, extras because opener is minimal)

now: 3NT = 5-2-2-4, 4♣ = 5-5, 4♦, 4♥ = fragment, showing shortness in the other suit.

1S-2C (3-way)
2H (natural, any strength) - 2NT (GF bal.)
3D (likely 5-4-1-3) - 3S (fit, does not show extras)

Now serious 3NT is on, other bids are cuebids.

[pclayton]

I've mentioned this before, but here's what I play. Frankly I need to check my own notes since it hasn't come up in awhile, but I think it goes like this (feel free to search on here for my 2N notes; they are on here but are about 2 years old )

By the way, I play 2N shows any balanced hand with 13+.

Over 2N:

3 of something beside 3♣; at least a K better than a maximum. 3N shows 15-17; 4N shows 18-19. 3♦ shows a good hand with either 4 card minor and 3♥ asks.

3♣ - minimum hand; responder puppets to 3♦ with a reason to ask (non-minimum), but can raise opener's major, or bid a 3♥ with a 4 card heart suit.

4 of a new suit shows a minimum 5-5, and a rebid of 4x by a 3x bidder shows a good 5-5.

4 of opener's major shows a dead minimum with at least 6 in the suit.

Serious 3♠ / 3N do not apply; rather they are a choice of game.

[mike777]

ok what problem hands does this solve at what loss?

[pclayton]

mike777, on Apr 3 2007, 09:40 PM, said:

ok what problem hands does this solve at what loss?

For me, the problem hands are a 15 opposite a 15 with a side fit. Without the ability to split the ranges at the 3 level, you have a problem, especially if you don't have the tools to sign back off at 4N.

I'm hard pressed to say what I give up with my 3♣ minimum catch-all. If anything, I conceal a lot of Opener's hand to the defense, when responder just puts it back in 3N

[jdonn]

mike777, on Apr 4 2007, 12:40 AM, said:

ok what problem hands does this solve at what loss?

It also makes 2/1 auctions much more accurate since you don't have to make a "fake" 2/1 bid on a balanced hand any more.

Really the only loss that I can think of, though it might be a big one for some people, is that you can't use 2NT for anything else like Jacoby so you need another way to bid those hands.

[pclayton]

When Fred came out with the article, he suggested 1♥ - 2♠ and 1♠ - 3♣ as the forcing raises. Harvey and I use this, and we've tweaked the responses a little so that they work with a 12-14 NT (i.e., 99% of 5332 with a major are opened 1N).

The responses require a little bandwidth, so its good to practice them every few months since they don't come up that much.

Fred: What are you playing with Brad these days?

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Apr 4 2007, 08:38 PM, said:

When Fred came out with the article, he suggested 1♥ - 2♠ and 1♠ - 3♣ as the forcing raises. Harvey and I use this, and we've tweaked the responses a little so that they work with a 12-14 NT (i.e., 99% of 5332 with a major are opened 1N).

The responses require a little bandwidth, so its good to practice them every few months since they don't come up that much.

My main issue with Fred's recommendation about using a 2NT response to a 1M opening as strong, natural, and forcing was the dramatic inequity in bidding space between the auctions

1♥ - 2♠ and
1♠ - 3♣

You have a step less bidding space available after a 1♠ opening compared to 1♥. Furthermore, you (arguably) have more hand types to show since you no longer have the auction 1♥ - 1♠ available. Whatever structures that you come up with won't be remotely symmetric to one another, significantly increasing memory load. I also suspect that you're going to have some efficiency issues.

For what its worth, I have typically used the auction 1♠ - 2NT as a strong Spade raise (game invite plus). We use a 2♠ over a 1♥ to show the same hand type which allows some nice symmetry between the two structures.

[fred]

pclayton, on Apr 4 2007, 05:38 PM, said:

When Fred came out with the article, he suggested 1♥ - 2♠ and 1♠ - 3♣ as the forcing raises. Harvey and I use this, and we've tweaked the responses a little so that they work with a 12-14 NT (i.e., 99% of 5332 with a major are opened 1N).

The responses require a little bandwidth, so its good to practice them every few months since they don't come up that much.

Fred: What are you playing with Brad these days?

The same thing 1H-2S and 1S-3C are artificial forcing raises.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Justin and I use 3♣ as the artificial forcing raise over both major suits, and 1♥ - 2♠ is a responder hand that would normally bid 1♠ then 2♠. This is because (essentially) we reverse the 1♠ and 1NT responses, and 1♥ 1NT 2x 2♠ is an artificial game force. I believe Fred has written something about this method (for the 2♠ bid in particular) as well, and I'm very happy with all of it in conjunction. I get the natural 2NT response that I like, symmetric rebids over the forcing raise, and make a lot of 4th suit forcing auctions better (like you don't have to bid 1♥ 1♠ 2♦ 3♣ any more). It also allows 1♥ 1♠ 2♥ 3m bids to promise 5-5 rather than just being a semi-descriptive convenient force as many use it, since with fewer cards in the minor responder can bid 2♠ and let opener further describe. For me the only real minus is I can't use 1M p 3♣ as natural and invitational which is what I normally like, but I am willing to make that sacrifice.

[mike777]

Hopefully we can see some examples of this natural 2nt in action at the table and what happened at the other table.