[inquiry]

You -- LHO --PARTNER- RHO
1C - - (1S) - - Pass - - (2H)
Pass - (pass) - DBL - - (pass)
?

[Free]

Penalty hand for ♠s, but now that they bid 2♥ it's optional imo: pass if you have ♥, otherwise bid something nice.

[Trpltrbl]

Penalty pass of ♠, letting you decide what to do.

Mike

[Deanrover]

With a new partner, and no agreement, I might take a look at my hand. With a singleton Heart, then perhaps the pen x of H looks more likely

[tysen2k]

Assuming you play negative doubles, I'd say partner can't have a penalty double of hearts...

[luke warm]

i voted takeout...first, we have no suit.. second, no negative double (can't be hearts imo)... i think if i have diamonds i'm bidding, if i can stand diamonds (or can't), i return to clubs

[whereagles]

I protest! You blindfold me when this is a problem that depends on what opener has If he has...

Axxx
Kxx
Qx
KJxx

it's probably take out for diamonds, with club tolerance. If he has

x
Axx
AQxx
KJxxx

it might very well be a penalty double of 1S!

[Trpltrbl]

You can't protest .
I don't think the meaning of the X chances depending on your hand.


Mike

[the hog]

Penalty of S. Please make the wrong decision.

[Gerben47]

Trpltrbl, there are situations where this is the case, for example:

1H pass 1NT pass pass double.

This shows either a penalty double with long hearts or a balancing takeout without hearts.

The actual problem is not a lot different, but I think it's just long spades and optional.

Gerben

[Flame]

Takeout - i play that any double is takeout unless we duscussed it first, and this one we didnt. If i would have looked for the optimal bidding for this specific sequence (which i dont because i dont want to remember a set of rules for each sequence) i would probebly double for penalty and bid 2sp with the diamond+club hand.

[Fluffy]

I agree with deanrover and whereeagles, althou the meaning normally is penalty in ♠, it may depend on your own cards, not because repodner has forgotten, but because he hopes your cards will tell you what is going on.

[Flame]

Fluffy, on Jul 8 2004, 07:27 AM, said:

I agree with deanrover and whereeagles, althou the meaning normally is penalty in ♠, it may depend on your own cards,  not because repodner has forgotten, but because he hopes your cards will tell you what is going on.

Where did you learn such a tretment for doubles ,when you have to look at your hand to know which kind of double it was?

This idea of two way doubles is probebly something you catched from bad players who instead of learning the meaning of doubles , trying to guess them from looking at their hands, and i advice you to forget it, you dont have to look at your hand inorder to understand the meaning of a double.

This doesnt mean two way doubles can never be right.

[whereagles]

I first learned about two-way doubles on Mike Lawrence's "Complete book on balancing".

[inquiry]

Ok, let me weigh in on what I think about this double.

There are several options here. I beleive with diamonds and a club tolerance here, responder would not double, but rather, would bid 2NT akin to scrambling 2NT. For me this 2NT can never be natural given the intial pass. With a spade penatly pass I would dble 2♥ not bid 2NT (see below),

Second, with a heart suit sufficient to double 2♥ for penalty and values for penalty double of 2♥ (especially at imps, but no matter), responder would have made a negative double over the 1♠ overcall. So a penalty double of ♥s is not possible.

So that leaves third, a hand that wanted to make a "penalty pass" 1♠ hoping opener would reopen with a double. Now over 1♥, the double is showing "cards" and a spade stack. This would put this double into the "optional" category. Opener with ♥'s can pass, or can make some other intelligent call.

As for a penalty double of 2♥ without the values for a negative double. What kind of hand would that be? Something maybe like.. ♠xxx ♥QJT98x ♦xxx ♣x ? Would you double 2♥ with that, or would you pass, happy to know that the opponents are probably not in their best spot and equally happy to know that it is not you playing some number of ♥'s?

I believe the poll shows a difference of opinion not so much on what double shows (all but one so far as takeout either showing spades as anchor suit or diamonds), but rather what 2NT would show. Those who say the double shows a penalty double of ♠ probably play 2NT in the balance seat as "scrambling". Those who play the double show diamonds with a ♣ tolerance would probably bid 2NT with the hand with a normal penalty double of 1♠.

Ben

[luis]

A spade suit and values.
I think this is very very clear.

[Deanrover]

Is it possible that partner could have something like

xxx
QJT987
xxx
x

?

And if not, why not? And what should partner do with that kind of hand?

[luis]

No it's not possible.
Pass and pass.

[inquiry]

IMHO, luis is correct, if partner held the hand deanrover showed, the correct bids are pass over 1♠ and pass out 2♥.

[Trpltrbl]

You can't X with that.

Mike