[tysen2k]

inquiry, on Jul 8 2004, 08:23 AM, said:

I believe the poll shows a difference of opinion not so much on what double shows (all but one so far as takeout either showing spades as anchor suit or diamonds), but rather what 2NT would show. Those who say the double shows a penalty double of ♠ probably play 2NT in the balance seat as "scrambling". Those who play the double show diamonds with a ♣ tolerance would probably bid 2NT with the hand with a normal penalty double of 1♠. 

I agree with Ben here. The double and 2NT go hand-in-hand. The problem is you aren't likely to have discussed either of these bids with partner. You might have a general agreement about 2NT in competition. In that case, it's the 2NT that defines your double. Without prior agreement I think partner has a penalty pass of ♠, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has the minors.

Tysen

[luke warm]

if the x isn't for hearts, and i agree it can't be, what does partner bid without an expectation of setting 2H? 2nt himself as scrambling? return to clubs? does the doubler show *any* suit besides spades?

in other words, without a hand suited to play 2H x'd, what bid does opener make and why?

removed hand by edit, already answered

[Free]

Deanrover, on Jul 8 2004, 02:44 PM, said:

Is it possible that partner could have something like

xxx
QJT987
xxx
x

?

And if not, why not? And what should partner do with that kind of hand?

No, if you passed initially, you pass again. I however would bid 2♥ negative 'Free' bid (I invented this - joke)...

[mishovnbg]

Optional, because you know that your p can have max 4 cards in ♥, penalty for ♠ of course, but max to inv hand. Trap pass with GF hand is bad idea.
Misho

[mishovnbg]

Deanrover, on Jul 8 2004, 03:44 PM, said:

Is it possible that partner could have something like

xxx
QJT987
xxx
x

?

And if not, why not? And what should partner do with that kind of hand?

Never dbl for penalty for reopen position, unles you have good rebid on any p bid. You can dbl for penalty only if previous penalty dbl by your side, because now all subsequent dbls will be penalty too. The reason of such way is playing with direct t/o doubles, trap passes and reopen t/o doubles - normal way now.
With hand in example you have happy pass .
Misho

[Fluffy]

Flame, on Jul 8 2004, 12:33 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 8 2004, 07:27 AM, said:

I agree with deanrover and whereeagles, althou the meaning normally is penalty in ♠, it may depend on your own cards,  not because repodner has forgotten, but because he hopes your cards will tell you what is going on.

Where did you learn such a tretment for doubles ,when you have to look at your hand to know which kind of double it was?

This idea of two way doubles is probebly something you catched from bad players who instead of learning the meaning of doubles , trying to guess them from looking at their hands, and i advice you to forget it, you dont have to look at your hand inorder to understand the meaning of a double.

This doesnt mean two way doubles can never be right.

The idea comes from natural deduction on natural competitive bidding sequences.

I mean those of wich like the given you had never have an aauction like, therefore never agreed on the exact meaning, but then you realice that regardless of what is the best meaning of a voice, it HAS to become clear to partner what is going on when you make such call.

Its not a rteatment for doubles, its a treatment for unnclear calls.

I did not catch it from bad players, althou some of them try to give advicecs without real knowledge I don´t pay attention to them.

If you wanna learn the meaning of all possible doubles in each case you will fid you don´t have enough memory for them and you are gonna forget something else, for example the 1♣ opening .