[000002]

i argued with my friend who win the champion of chinese championship 3months ago.the bidding auction is as below:

N****E*****S****W

1♠---2♣----4♠----5♣
5♦----6♣--- ?

the hand south hold is interesting:
Axxxxx
JT
xxx
Ax

NS use a system named precision,1♠ opening is limited 11-15counts.the VUL is NS vulnarable and EW white.3♣ cuebid is invitational hand hereinbefore.

can south take a green forcing pass now?

thanks ,i would like to learn from u with the petition for interpret .


regards 000002

[Free]

No, south raised preemptively (I know, this can be various hands, but this should be considered preemptive), so there's no forcing pass. If he would've started with 2NT or 3♣ raise it's another story, but it's still not forcing according to Robsol-Segal...

[flytoox]

whatever it is, you should dbl with this holding. Pd's 5D discourage you to compete on.

Dbl and lead a Diamond.

[Rossoneri]

4S could have been made on hands holding 5 spades and a weaker hand than this, so it definitely can't be forcing.

[han]

The 4♠ bid does not make this a forcing pass, that is clear. But the 5♦ bid might.. it depends on what it means. If this is really a slam try, then does it make sense to let the opponents play 6C undoubled? I don't think so.

If you do not play 5♦ as a slam try try but as showing a very distributional hand in case the opponents bid over 5S.. then it may make sense to play pass as NF. However, this is an unusual level to play this. I might play 1♥-(2♠)-4♥-(4♠)-5♦ like this, but not the actual auction.

BTW I think that it is certainly possible to have a slam try after this start, north must have a very pure hand. I think double with the south hand is clear, xxx in diamonds is perhaps the worst possible holding for partner.

[Apollo81]

Pass is not forcing.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass is non forcing, for me 5D is just a
lead director, which may or may not
based on a real suit.

If you would have bid 3C, you would have
created a forcing pass situation, but the direct
jump did not.
Take away the Ace of spades and you still bid
the same way, ... and you still have no clue,
if you should sacrifice.
Since you are red vs. green, you should make
a double and take what you get.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Playing Precision, you may have some
add. infomation about openers shape, since
you probably play some 2-suiter openings.

[helene_t]

Hannie, on Feb 4 2007, 05:41 PM, said:

The 4♠ bid does not make this a forcing pass, that is clear. But the 5♦ bid might.. it depends on what it means.

I don't think so. Playing Precision, opener cannot create a forcing pass since no matter what 5♦ shows, he's still limited.

I agree with Flytoox, the 5♦ bid discourages you so you must double.

[000002]

thanks all commentator:))

which hand north can rebid after 4♠?since 1♠ open promise total 8 cards on the 2 longest suit,5♦ need 11total cards on ♠ and ♦.i think north ought to rebid 5♠ simplely with 10total cards,ie 5350 such as.

which hand is the typical of this 11total?6511 or 6520,and good value.take instance:
QJxxxx
Ax
AKxxx
---

did u agree?


regards 000002

[Winstonm]

000002, on Feb 5 2007, 10:23 PM, said:

thanks all commentator:))

which hand north can rebid after 4♠?since 1♠ open promise total 8 cards on the 2 longest suit,5♦ need 11total cards on ♠ and ♦.i think north ought to rebid 5♠ simplely with 10total cards,ie 5350 such as.

which hand is the typical of this 11total?6511 or 6520,and good value.take instance:
QJxxxx
Ax
AKxxx
---

did u agree?


regards 000002

Playing a strong club system, this hand should have been opened 1C IMO. It is too good for 1S.

In the given auction, I would not double because of my diamond holding - I would think we had a double fit and the hand is very pure - no wastage. It sounds like easily the opponents can hold 11 trumps. Our 10 plus their 11 + 1 for purity gets us to 22 total tricks. If they can make 11, we can make 11. If they can make 10, we can make 12.

Bidding on looks clear cut to me.

[han]

For me this would be a clear 1S opening playing precision. Isn't this one of the beauties of the system, that you can bid 1S-1NT-3D to show such a hand? And if the opponents preempt, at least you got one of your suits in.

You know I hate to do this Winston, but I disagree that xxx in diamonds makes this a pure hand. For example, I think that it is worse than xx or any holding with an honor.

[Winstonm]

Hannie, on Feb 6 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

For me this would be a clear 1S opening playing precision. Isn't this one of the beauties of the system, that you can bid 1S-1NT-3D to show such a hand? And if the opponents preempt, at least you got one of your suits in.

You know I hate to do this Winston, but I disagree that xxx in diamonds makes this a pure hand. For example, I think that it is worse than xx or any holding with an honor.

Han - I mean pure in the context of no wastage in opponents suits, that is AA holdings. Pure also in the sense of a double-double fit. A suspected 10-card fit in spades and an 8-card fit in diamonds. And I don't hold secondary cards in the opponents' suit.

I agree I would like it more with even Jxx of diamonds, but I don't have that.

Of course, a perfectly pure hand would be: Axxxx, xxx, Axx, xx. Still, the hand we have is fairly close and the double-double fit should add a trump to the total tricks.

And while true that in Precision you can jump shift with 15, this hand is quite a bit better IMO. Most of your cards are in your long suit - you hold 5 controls - you have a 6th spade - and you have a void.

A much more powerful hand than say: AKxxx, x, AQJxx, xx (5 losers)
verses QJxxxx, Ax, AKxxx, void (4 losers)

Playing Precision, 1S could be passed with Kx, Kx, xxxxx, xxxx. It's usually a poor result to play your 6D hand in 1S.

You still have a chance to change your mind and keep the score perfect in 2007.

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on Feb 6 2007, 09:59 PM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 6 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

For me this would be a clear 1S opening playing precision. Isn't this one of the beauties of the system, that you can bid 1S-1NT-3D to show such a hand? And if the opponents preempt, at least you got one of your suits in.

You know I hate to do this Winston, but I disagree that xxx in diamonds makes this a pure hand. For example, I think that it is worse than xx or any holding with an honor.

Han - I mean pure in the context of no wastage in opponents suits, that is AA holdings. Pure also in the sense of a double-double fit. A suspected 10-card fit in spades and an 8-card fit in diamonds. And I don't hold secondary cards in the opponents' suit.

I agree I would like it more with even Jxx of diamonds, but I don't have that.

Of course, a perfectly pure hand would be: Axxxx, xxx, Axx, xx. Still, the hand we have is fairly close and the double-double fit should add a trump to the total tricks.

Winston, I think there are worlds between Axxxx xxx xxx Ax and Axxxx xxx Axx xx on this auction.

[han]

I don't think that Axxxx xxx Axx xx is the purest holding, kings and minor honors in spades and diamonds would be purer (no value on defense).

BTW, we have 6 spades, not 5. Yes, I know this supports your argument but I thought it was ethical to mention it. Should bridge ethics apply to the forums too?