[mike777]

Scoring: MP

1D=(2C)=P=P
X =P = 2H=(3C)
X= P===??

---

Ok another hand I got wrong I hope you can discuss what is correct, please.

[Winstonm]

Yes, this is somewhat confusing.

What would 1D-2C-P-P-2N mean? This I would think would be the standard with an 18-19 NT hand.

Can it be penalty. I don't think so, as opener did not know RHO would support clubs so with that hand would have bid 2N instead of double.

Can it be some kind of game try? I think so, as my 2H hasn't guaranteed a 5-card suit so what else could pard do to invite? AKJ, Kxx, AK10xxx, x?

I am bidding 4H.

[mike777]

For this post be assured partner does not have 18-19 balanced.

[kenrexford]

Winstonm, on Feb 2 2007, 11:30 PM, said:

Yes, this is somewhat confusing.

What would 1D-2C-P-P-2N mean? This I would think would be the standard with an 18-19 NT hand.

Can it be penalty. I don't think so, as opener did not know RHO would support clubs so with that hand would have bid 2N instead of double.

Can it be some kind of game try? I think so, as my 2H hasn't guaranteed a 5-card suit so what else could pard do to invite? AKJ, Kxx, AK10xxx, x?

I am bidding 4H.

I agree 100% with the reasoning and conclusion here.

I'm just not sure I agree witht he first sentence.

[the hog]

Well it is not penalty, that is 100% obvious - I agree with you Winstonm. I think opener thinks that a 3H bid might not sound as strong as a X. Like Winstonm and Ken am bidding 4H.

[Echognome]

Why not bid 3♠ in case opener is 4=3=5=1? Of course, the nice part about the 5-3 heart fit is that opener doesn't need to have good trumps to use to ruff those small clubs, whereas we are already trump poor in the spade suit.

[mike777]

ty all of these responses are great and learning..ty

[Winstonm]

Echognome, on Feb 3 2007, 03:06 AM, said:

Why not bid 3♠ in case opener is 4=3=5=1?  Of course, the nice part about the 5-3 heart fit is that opener doesn't need to have good trumps to use to ruff those small clubs, whereas we are already trump poor in the spade suit.

I considered that and that is the cause for my "this is confusing" part of my post.

The confusing part is how to continue. Opener would surely double back in with a strong 4351 pattern, but then is 3S forcing and does it indeed show 45 or could it simply be 44? One of my thoughts was to bid 4C instead of 4H, assuring game, and then pulling a 4D rebid to 4H, indicating majors - however, I discarded this as undiscussed and probably too convoluted. Falling back on my rule, when things get cloudy and no discussed scientific solution is available, make the practical bid - and IMO the practical bid here is 4H.

[pclayton]

Winstonm, on Feb 3 2007, 06:48 AM, said:

Echognome, on Feb 3 2007, 03:06 AM, said:

Why not bid 3♠ in case opener is 4=3=5=1?  Of course, the nice part about the 5-3 heart fit is that opener doesn't need to have good trumps to use to ruff those small clubs, whereas we are already trump poor in the spade suit.

I considered that and that is the cause for my "this is confusing" part of my post.

The confusing part is how to continue. Opener would surely double back in with a strong 4351 pattern, but then is 3S forcing and does it indeed show 45 or could it simply be 44? One of my thoughts was to bid 4C instead of 4H, assuring game, and then pulling a 4D rebid to 4H, indicating majors - however, I discarded this as undiscussed and probably too convoluted. Falling back on my rule, when things get cloudy and no discussed scientific solution is available, make the practical bid - and IMO the practical bid here is 4H.

Opener's 2nd double is takeout, but probably shows a 4-3-5-1. I would bid 3♠ with shows a 4-5; with 4-4 I would spades 1st.

This isn't one of those situations where we bid up the line with 4-4.

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Feb 3 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

Why not bid 3♠ in case opener is 4=3=5=1? Of course, the nice part about the 5-3 heart fit is that opener doesn't need to have good trumps to use to ruff those small clubs, whereas we are already trump poor in the spade suit.

I would say 3♠ isn't forcing. If you want to force to game and give partner a choice, I would bid 4♣ - but 3♠ is a very reasonable alternative, it certainly shows extras.

I want to force to game though, and thus bid 4♣.

[han]

I don't think 3S shows extras and I don't think it shows 5 hearts. I think I might bid this way with xxxx xxxx xx xxx.

[HeartA]

Hannie, on Feb 3 2007, 08:56 PM, said:

I don't think 3S shows extras and I don't think it shows 5 hearts. I think I might bid this way with xxxx xxxx xx xxx.

That I don't agree. 2H in that position must show 5+.

[Echognome]

Hannie, on Feb 3 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I don't think 3S shows extras and I don't think it shows 5 hearts. I think I might bid this way with xxxx xxxx xx xxx.

Makes no difference really. If you bid 3♠ you are looking for a 4-4 fit. What is opener going to do without 4♠? He's certainly not going to play you for 5-5! So either he can bid 3N (which you can correct) or he'll raise hearts. I'm not saying you necessarily want to play in the 4-4 fit, but it's the only way to find it.

[Winstonm]

Echognome, on Feb 4 2007, 02:41 AM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 3 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I don't think 3S shows extras and I don't think it shows 5 hearts. I think I might bid this way with xxxx xxxx xx xxx.

Makes no difference really. If you bid 3♠ you are looking for a 4-4 fit. What is opener going to do without 4♠? He's certainly not going to play you for 5-5! So either he can bid 3N (which you can correct) or he'll raise hearts. I'm not saying you necessarily want to play in the 4-4 fit, but it's the only way to find it.

I think the problem is partner may pass with 4S, and we want to be in game, either the 4/4 spades or the 5/3 hearts.

I - for the second time this year - agree with Han that there is nothing in the bidding to suggest responder holds better than xxxx, xxxx, xxx, xx. If doubler held 4H there would be no point in doubling again, as 3H would show a powerful hand in this auction. There would be no point in responder rebidding a 4-card heart suit - I would take a false preference to diamonds with xxx, xxxx, xx, xxx instead of rebidding 3H. The double has forced us to play 3C doubled, 3 of a major, or 4D, but it has not forced us to game. 3S should be non-forcing.

4C is a good bid but can cause confusion - again, I think the practical bid is 4H, which should play all right even against: AKJxx, Kx, AKxxxx, x. I don't think I'd want to try 4C without at least first having discussed the concept of this type of bid if not the actualy auction itself.

[han]

Winston, are you free tonight? I know this nice restaurant..


Matt, I think that 3♠ is NF because opener is very likely to have 4 spades on this auction. He has made some TO doubles of clubs, and he doesn't have 4 hearts. I don't think that opener would bid like this if he had a 1-suiter in diamonds. But, as Winston and others have said, this is a very difficult auction. Some say that we always bid 2♠ the first time with 4-4 in the majors. Maybe this is true, but I wouldn't have known. I suspect that very few partnerships have discussed that.

[Apollo81]

I'd bid 3♥. Why can't pard have a 4-3-4-2 18-count for this auction?

AQxx
Axx
AQxx
Kx

Do you really want to be in game opposite this hand? Change the ♣K to the ♣A and the ♠A to the ♠K...game is still poor.

This is MPs so I don't see a need to blast here.