[xx1943]

Scoring: IMP


EAST SOUTH WEST NORTH
pass   pass      1♦      X
 1♥     1NT       2♣     X
 2♦     pass     pass   2♠
pass   pass     pass

---

Hi all
Sitting North I missed a good slam playing in 2♠.

1) How do you divide the blame between N and S?
2) Is the 2♠-bid by North forcing?
3) Is it realistic to find the slam against both opponents bidding?

Al

[hotShot]

Holding a 5 looser hand opposite a partner who shows signs of life you should reach game.

I think the problem is the 2nd double. South 1NT denied a 4-card ♠ suit and should show stopper in ♦ and ♥. While partners ♦ values may be wasted, He should hold something in ♣ or ♠ too.
Since you only need partner to cover 1 of your looser to make 3NT and 2 to make 4♠ you need to find a strong forcing bid over this 1NT.
X followed by a suit of your own should show a strong hand, while another x may be misunderstood as penalty, since your first x may have promised ♣ length.

[han]

I'd say south bid his hand with 1NT, it is not 100% clear to me that north's auction shows a very strong hand. North knows that they want to be in game so should bid accordingly.

I wouldn't say that this is a "very good slam".

[ohioply]

I think 2nd x should be 3s shows your suit, strength, and gives p a choice btw 4s and 3nt if he has diamonds

[P_Marlowe]

1) First question: who was responsible for missing game?
Probbaly North.

2) Unclear, but South should not pass
3) No idea

[pclayton]

xx1943, on Jan 21 2007, 12:15 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP


EAST SOUTH WEST NORTH
pass   pass      1♦      X
 1♥     1NT       2♣     X
 2♦     pass     pass   2♠
pass   pass     pass

---

Hi all
Sitting North I missed a good slam playing in 2♠. 

1) How do you divide the blame between N and S?
2) Is the 2♠-bid by North forcing?
3) Is it realistic to find the slam against both opponents bidding?

Al

2♠ is forcing and South should raise. The double of 2♣ confirms ownership of the deal.

North cues 4♣ and South cues the ♦A. Can you still get there? Dunno.

Its not that great a slam. You need the ♠K onside (likely on the bidding) (and probably 3-2) and hearts 3-3 (or the ♥J dropping in 2, OR, the hand with the 3rd spade holding the 4th heart (as here)).

I think you'd pick up plenty of matchpoints for +680 (yes I know its IMPs).

By the way, I really like your bidding diagram, and noticed how you set it up. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a button that set it up in the same way????

(Jeez, we haven't asked for this before have we)

[Double !]

Not saying that this is the correct action, but it at least should have gotten you to game:

What would a 2 ♦ bid over rho's 2♣ after partner's 1NT bid have meant to you. As the resident bidding dinosaur, i would suggest that a double followed by a cue-bid (2 diamonds would be most unlikely to be natural on this auction) should at the very least set up a game force. Then you don't have all this confusion about whether or not 2S shows a GOSH, just the better of majors with a minimum opening hand (don't laugh- sort of like a conversion dbl), or something else. In fact, 2 ♦ permits partner to show a reasonable 3-card major if stuck for a bid. But, again, at least you are getting to game.

DHL

[whereagles]

I would have tried 2♠ over 2♣ (an obvious GOSH and game-force), after which it should have been pretty easy to bid at least game.

[cherdano]

Hannie, on Jan 21 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I'd say south bid his hand with 1NT, it is not 100% clear to me that north's auction shows a very strong hand. North knows that they want to be in game so should bid accordingly.

I wouldn't say that this is a "very good slam".

What can North have except a hand too strong to overcall 1♠ in the first place? I think 2♠ must be strong, and thus logically forcing, a jump to 3♠ would show longer spades.

[Codo]

cherdano, on Jan 22 2007, 04:23 AM, said:

Hannie, on Jan 21 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I'd say south bid his hand with 1NT, it is not 100% clear to me that north's auction shows a very strong hand. North knows that they want to be in game so should bid accordingly.

I wouldn't say that this is a "very good slam".

What can North have except a hand too strong to overcall 1♠ in the first place? I think 2♠ must be strong, and thus logically forcing, a jump to 3♠ would show longer spades.

He may have a 5404 hand wit 10-15 HCPs?
He may have 4414 wit 13-16 prefering the 4-3 Fit insead of 2 NT?

He surely does not have his real hand, because he had bid 2 Spade after 2 Club with that hand.

I had liked to be in game, but not in Slam and I would blame Nort 100 % for is X of 2 Club.

[HeartA]

1) North is 100% responsible for missing game. Second double is unclear, it could be penalty (1st dbl shows 3 suits) or a little extra for further competitive.
2) 2S by North is not forcing, imo. South's free 1NT over opp's 1H had showed his hand. I would cue-bid 2D and then introduce S later.
3) After opp's opening (and responses), it is difficult to find the slam. It is not a good slam anyway.

[the hog]

HeartA, on Jan 23 2007, 04:54 PM, said:

1) North is 100% responsible for missing game. Second double is unclear, it could be penalty (1st dbl shows 3 suits) or a little extra for further competitive.
2) 2S by North is not forcing, imo. South's free 1NT over opp's 1H had showed his hand. I would cue-bid 2D and then introduce S later.
3) After opp's opening (and responses), it is difficult to find the slam. It is not a good slam anyway.

How can anyone say Nth is responsible? I am sorry but this is totally off with the pixies. The 2S bid after two doubles is 100% forcing. North bid the hand very well.

[joker_gib]

The_Hog, on Jan 23 2007, 09:48 AM, said:

HeartA, on Jan 23 2007, 04:54 PM, said:

1) North is 100% responsible for missing game.  Second double is unclear, it could be penalty (1st dbl shows 3 suits) or a little extra for further competitive.
2) 2S by North is not forcing, imo.  South's free 1NT over opp's 1H had showed his hand.  I would cue-bid 2D and then introduce S later.
3) After opp's opening (and responses), it is difficult to find the slam.  It is not a good slam anyway.

How can anyone say Nth is responsible? I am sorry but this is totally off with the pixies. The 2S bid after two doubles is 100% forcing. North bid the hand very well.

I agree totally ! Not raising partner with a fit and 8HCP after He doubled twice is a crime.

100% South

[hotShot]

The_Hog, on Jan 23 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

HeartA, on Jan 23 2007, 04:54 PM, said:

1) North is 100% responsible for missing game.  Second double is unclear, it could be penalty (1st dbl shows 3 suits) or a little extra for further competitive.
2) 2S by North is not forcing, imo.  South's free 1NT over opp's 1H had showed his hand.  I would cue-bid 2D and then introduce S later.
3) After opp's opening (and responses), it is difficult to find the slam.  It is not a good slam anyway.

How can anyone say Nth is responsible? I am sorry but this is totally off with the pixies. The 2S bid after two doubles is 100% forcing. North bid the hand very well.

Well it depends much on the agreed meaning of the 1st dbl. If it is shape the first dbl may have been weakish and the 2nd dbl shows strength. If the first dbl showed strength the 2nd is (at least offering to be) penalty.

North first X promised something like opening strength and tolerance for any other suit.
After South showed 8-10 HCP with his NT bid, North knows that they have more points than opps and could/should hold 4-5♣'s e.g. 4405 or 4414 and his X is penalty. After opps ran to 2♦ north does not have a penalty dbl any more and south did not wish to dbl 2♦. So north with 12 HCP may try to take the chance playing (5)4-3 fit in ♠.

South has shown strength and distribution with his 1NT bid, there is nothing more to say.

So why should south raise a possible 7 card fit or without extra values?

[han]

cherdano, on Jan 21 2007, 02:23 PM, said:

Hannie, on Jan 21 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I'd say south bid his hand with 1NT, it is not 100% clear to me that north's auction shows a very strong hand. North knows that they want to be in game so should bid accordingly.

I wouldn't say that this is a "very good slam".

What can North have except a hand too strong to overcall 1♠ in the first place? I think 2♠ must be strong, and thus logically forcing, a jump to 3♠ would show longer spades.

Maybe you are right. Maybe North can have something like AKJx x Jxx AJxxx? As I said, I don't know and I wouldn't risk it at the table.

[the hog]

hotShot, on Jan 23 2007, 10:06 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jan 23 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

HeartA, on Jan 23 2007, 04:54 PM, said:

1) North is 100% responsible for missing game.  Second double is unclear, it could be penalty (1st dbl shows 3 suits) or a little extra for further competitive.
2) 2S by North is not forcing, imo.  South's free 1NT over opp's 1H had showed his hand.  I would cue-bid 2D and then introduce S later.
3) After opp's opening (and responses), it is difficult to find the slam.  It is not a good slam anyway.

How can anyone say Nth is responsible? I am sorry but this is totally off with the pixies. The 2S bid after two doubles is 100% forcing. North bid the hand very well.

Well it depends much on the agreed meaning of the 1st dbl. If it is shape the first dbl may have been weakish and the 2nd dbl shows strength. If the first dbl showed strength the 2nd is (at least offering to be) penalty.

North first X promised something like opening strength and tolerance for any other suit.
After South showed 8-10 HCP with his NT bid, North knows that they have more points than opps and could/should hold 4-5♣'s e.g. 4405 or 4414 and his X is penalty. After opps ran to 2♦ north does not have a penalty dbl any more and south did not wish to dbl 2♦. So north with 12 HCP may try to take the chance playing (5)4-3 fit in ♠.

South has shown strength and distribution with his 1NT bid, there is nothing more to say.

So why should south raise a possible 7 card fit or without extra values?

Why? Because with the right hand opposite you may very well have a slam on, and the best way to investigate this is to keep the bidding low. I could just as easily ask "Why pass a forcing bid?"

[Codo]

IF you have a strong hand with spades, why do you double 2 Club?

You have the following possibilities to show strong hands:
2 ♦ 2 ♥ 2 ♠ 2 NT 3♣ 3 ♦ and so on...
Which reason do you have to play X as strong and not as penalty?
But if you have a hand where you have a normal take out double, it would be really nice to show, that you can beat 2 Club by several tricks....

So, the second double does not show a strong hand and that is why 2 Spade is non forcing...

[cherdano]

Codo, on Jan 23 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

IF you have a strong hand with spades, why do you double 2 Club?

You have the following possibilities to show strong hands:
2 ♦ 2 ♥ 2 ♠ 2 NT 3♣ 3 ♦ and so on...
Which reason do you have to play X as strong and not as penalty?
But if you have a hand where you have a normal take out double, it would be really nice to show, that you can beat 2 Club by several tricks....

So, the second double does not show a strong hand and that is why 2 Spade is non forcing...

For me, double-then-bid-a-new-suit is always stronger than directly bidding the suit, with the only exception of a negative double and a later bid of a major. I really don't see why this auction should be an exception here. I also think Han's 4135 hand is impossible, there is no point in bidding more after partner has twice shown a lack of interest in competing and opponents have had a non-fit auction.

[jtfanclub]

The below assumes that 1NT doesn't *promise* a solid diamond stop.

So, you have 4414 distribution (perfect for the X), and enough strength that, across 1NT, playing at 2♣X seems like a fun time. After the 2♦ correction and no penalty X from partner, you need some way to find out if you should be playing 3NT. It seems to me that...

2♠ should be the 4414 with around 15 hcp.
3♦ should be the 4414 with around 19 hcp.

If that were the case, then 2♠ is passable, and if your partner had
♠Qxx
♥Axx
♦Jxx
♣xxxx

he'd probably pass. As it is, I would think the question is to bid 2NT or 3NT. With the ATxx I'd be more tempted to bid 3NT.

So I blame both sides...N for first denying a good 5 card spade suit with his X of 2♣ and then not continuing the lie by bidding 3♦, S for passing in spite of a good hand both in support of spades and with a diamond stop, so whatever partner's looking for, he has it.

Oh well, I'm sure I must be wrong somehow, but it made sense at the time!

[BebopKid]

In my understanding, a double denies a 5-card suit. With ♦ being my longest suit, I would tend to let my partner play with a 7-card fit at 2♠.

North's bidding would seem odd to me.