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What do you bid?

#1 User is offline   ewj 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 06:18

Scoring: IMP


There are three passes around to partner and he opens 1C.
[You're playing 4 card majors by the way].
RHO bids 1S, you pass and LHO thinks for ages and bids 2NT, which is described as a good raise.
Partner now doubles, and RHO bids 3S, which is passed round to partner, who doubles again.
What's your action?
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#2 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 06:23

4C.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 06:28

Pass is the LOTT bid if partner has five clubs and one spade. 4♣ is the LOTT bid if he's void in spades or has a 6th club.

I think his double of 2NT was penalty-oriented, so I'll pass. If he had passed 2NT and doubled 3♠ I would bid 4♣.
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#4 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 08:24

4♣, insurance against partner having 0445 shape. If that's true then 3♠ and 4♣ both might make. Could be turning a plus into a minus; willing to accept that.
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 08:37

now that I passed this many times, it would be a shame to ruin that streak.

:)

(no, seriously, my hand is awful, I shan't introduce it on the 4 level, pd can dbl all he wants)
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#6 User is offline   Halo 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 08:44

4D

I think partner wants me to bid, and I have a diamond suit. I am really tempted to bid 5D, since it's IMPs and partner shouldn't be messing about without very good reason.
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#7 User is offline   ArcLight 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 09:01

I'll bid 4♣, expecting to go down, but its insurance against a big pay off for the opps.

If I had an entry or two I might pass and lead trumps.
The big problem is I might not get in to lead more trumps and cut down on ruffs.
I don't see a source of tricks for the opps, except by ruffing. Unfortuneately I can't stop that. 3♠ Doubled making would be rather unfortunate.
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#8 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 09:12

4♣
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#9 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 09:31

4♣. This is not looking good in defending this doubled.
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#10 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-January-18, 09:53

3N scrambling :)

Surprised someone hasn't said it...but just for the record I'm being sarcastic :o I'd go with 4C as well.
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#11 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 09:56

I understand that I am looking at three small spades. I understand that most doubles are high-offense-to-defense doubles. It just irks me that, with so many alternatives, you cannot double 3♠ for penalty.

The alternatives are much more than obvious when 2NT is fit-showing and partner is willing to force a four-level call opposite my repeated indications of weakness, including:

Bidding 3♠ after 2NT
Bidding three of a red suit after 2NT, then doubling 3♠
Doubling 2NT and then bidding 3NT
Doubling 2NT and then bidding 4♣
Passing, and then doubling 3♠ (or bidding 4♣)

I just cannot understand why in this auction the second double is not penalty, unless pass...X is the penalty option.

(Couldn't 2NT also have been a mistake?)
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#12 User is offline   ewj 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 10:16

Fair enough.
I passed, expecting partner to have 1 and maybe even two trumps, which was probably a bit optomistic of me. I thought he could have bid 3S over 2NT with a hugely offensive hand.

My partner had


Scoring: IMP


and I think we could make 6C, both minors broke 4-1, although the hearts were 3-3.
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#13 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 11:06

kenrexford, on Jan 18 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I understand that I am looking at three small spades. I understand that most doubles are high-offense-to-defense doubles. It just irks me that, with so many alternatives, you cannot double 3♠ for penalty.

The alternatives are much more than obvious when 2NT is fit-showing and partner is willing to force a four-level call opposite my repeated indications of weakness, including:

Bidding 3♠ after 2NT
Bidding three of a red suit after 2NT, then doubling 3♠
Doubling 2NT and then bidding 3NT
Doubling 2NT and then bidding 4♣
Passing, and then doubling 3♠ (or bidding 4♣)

I just cannot understand why in this auction the second double is not penalty, unless pass...X is the penalty option.

(Couldn't 2NT also have been a mistake?)

I think passing-then-doubling should be penalty. The immediate double of 2N should be takeout, because there are many hands with takeout shape that might not be able to force to the 4-level.

Passing 2N then doubling 3S is a bid like doubling in the auction 1D-(1S)-P-(2S)-P-(P)-X. Since you couldn't make a takeout double one level lower, the double one level higher if usually played as showing a penalty pass I believe (not sure that I would risk it with a pickup partner though).
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#14 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 11:07

ewj, on Jan 18 2007, 06:16 PM, said:

Fair enough.
I passed, expecting partner to have 1 and maybe even two trumps, which was probably a bit optomistic of me. I thought he could have bid 3S over 2NT with a hugely offensive hand.

I would expect a long club suit (a running one, ideally) for a 3S bid, asking for a spade stopper.
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#15 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-January-18, 11:17

As far as why this double should not be pen, partner already Xed for takeout. He could not do this with a penalty X since his partner might bid (since it's a takeout X). Partners X showed some extras, and now his second X is showing a lot of extras but it doesn't change the meaning from takeout to penalty. Partner might convert to penalties on a hand that couldn't X 3S for penalty (since partner had not shown such significant extras yet, ie QJ9x xxx xxx xxx).

I cannot understand how this auction could be played as penalty.
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#16 User is offline   david_c 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 11:35

Jlall, on Jan 18 2007, 06:17 PM, said:

As far as why this double should not be pen, partner already Xed for takeout.

You seem very sure that double of 2NT is take-out. I agree this is the best meaning, but if it was undiscussed I would have taken it as "values". I'd have passed like Ed did.
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#17 User is offline   Halo 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 12:12

Knew I should have bid game.
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#18 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-January-18, 12:19

david_c, on Jan 18 2007, 12:35 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jan 18 2007, 06:17 PM, said:

As far as why this double should not be pen, partner already Xed for takeout.

You seem very sure that double of 2NT is take-out. I agree this is the best meaning, but if it was undiscussed I would have taken it as "values". I'd have passed like Ed did.

Values is very vague. Values and what type of hand? Well if he had a good hand with a 2 suiter, he'd bid his suit. If he had a 1 suiter he'd rebid his suit. If he had 18-19 balanced with a doubleton spade he would X (but thats still a takeout shape). What about 18-19 balanced with 3 spades? Should partner get involved? Probably not, the opps have overcalled and shown a good raise and partner couldn't bid over 1S. This is similar to the problem of what to do when they overcall and cuebid and you have 18-19 with some length in their suit. Usually you just let it go since you're not going anywhere. Partner may have "values" but I'm sure he is also willing to compete and thus has some spade shortness.
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#19 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-January-18, 12:20

Halo, on Jan 18 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Knew I should have bid game.

I'm sure partner is going to bid game with that monster if you bid 4 of a minor over his 2nd X. A lot of flat 0 counts produce a game.
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#20 User is offline   Halo 

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Posted 2007-January-18, 13:04

Jlall, on Jan 18 2007, 01:20 PM, said:

Halo, on Jan 18 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Knew I should have bid game.

I'm sure partner is going to bid game with that monster if you bid 4 of a minor over his 2nd X. A lot of flat 0 counts produce a game.

Yes, very reasonable.

Why 4C from so many? Why is the 53 fit better than 44 - nobody suggested less than 4D. He doesn't have to be solid clubs and diamonds with gaps.
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