[keylime]

Let me preface my monologue with some underpinnings so I can aim at the proper perspective:

1. Many consider me a "traditionist".
2. I consider communism and socialism as being a self-limiting concept that has repeatedly failed due to the will of the individual wanting freedoms of choice, speech, and dissent.
3. I used to be believe it or not, liberal. I even had really long hair and listened actively to the Ramones (make sure you haven't fainted).
4. President Bush doesn't get a blank check from me.

The concept of capitalism - free enterprise, low taxes, high promotion of basic rights, and the emphasis of self-service over government control, to be is nearly unlimited. One of the "a-has" I had in my life was seeing how the mentality of zero-sum resulting simply falls flat when confronted with the irresistible thrill and joy that newly found freedom inspires. Communism could never succeed; nothing in this world can have longetivity when it does not evolve, promote positive change, and denies to the practioniers of such said idea to ability to say, "Why can't we?". This alone causes much passion with me.

Is capitalism perfect? Not even close. It's prone to greed, corruption and such, just because unlike other economic systems people have much more locus of control and therefore there is an inherent tendency to hoard assets if the character of the person is suspect. Unlike communism, capitalism I feel places a higher burden of morality upon the individual just because of the latitude given. However, if we are not willing to entrust each other with the basics of honesty and respect, then do we really deserve this much perceived and exercised freedom?

In essence this is the struggle that I face with daily with the legitimate threat of terror - it is a protracted battle between the concept of freedom and the concept of imposition. As aforementioned, I do have strong views of Islam that were shaped as a direct result of my experiences in the Middle East and in Indonesia. Religion by itself is an explosive topic; however I will say that the concept of kids and young men and women suicide bombing non-combatants for solely the sake of destructive means is beyond consciousable. To be completely fair, even us Christians have a very checkered history - remember, we did this to the Jews repeatedly in history; we just didn't use bombs to get out our "message". Frankly, this is one of the most shameful things we did as a faith: out of "love" and "friendship" supposedly...

I do believe the war is being won, because I try very hard to view it from a global view. I also look at it as the opening stanza of a long, grinding conflict. The Ethiopian actions are that of a skirmish compared to the pending long-term events that I feel will start happening. I look at the situation with Russia's energy muscle, Japan's metamorphasis, China's burgeoning growth, Africa's slow but steady movement forward into the 21st Century, and Western Europe's vulnerability as all indicators that things are a-changin'.

What surprises me is PM Howard is supposedly viled when he's been PM since 1996. Maybe being leader for 10 years has brought forth similar levels of criticism like Lady Thatcher's rule.

[pbleighton]

"I do believe the war is being won, because I try very hard to view it from a global view."

Fair enough, But:

What is the "war"?

Who are "we"?

Who are "they"?

What to "we" need to do to "them"?

FWIW, in my 'global view" societies will eventually be:
1. Secular
2. Democratic
3. Respect human rights, at home and abroad
4 Have a mixed economy - a capitalist base with a welfare state and regulations to sandpaper the evil underbelly of capitalism
5. Engage in free trade with other countries
6. Be (mostly) peaceful

This will take centuries, if not millenia.

The human race could screw it up.

There will be lots of violence along the way, but I don't consider this to be a "war". It's a process. Calling it a "war" is sloppy thinking, and leads to disasters/war crimes such as the invasion of Iraq.

Peter

[Al_U_Card]

Take the Peloponesian war...please. It lost favor quickly because it was too hard to spell.

Every society holds the key to enlightenment and given the time, and effort, could evolve into the ultimate human societal framework. The problem is that all societies, like political parties or other "organizations", are heavily laden with those elements that ensure their survival as well as their stagnification. Conservative, blinkered, greedy, specific objectivized thinking always rots the system away from within. Where are the "Think tanks" that are looking at sustainable development (or any other subject of interest) at the "expense" of their own sponsors? Neither power nor greed nor apathy corrupts us; human nature and its ingrained survival instinct does a way better job and is much more insidious and pernicious.

I like your idea Peter, and it says a lot for the potential that we have as human beings. Perhaps faced with the ultimate threat (extinction whether by natural or man-made means) may cause the supra-survival instinct to kick in....we can only hope so.

[pbleighton]

"I like your idea Peter, and it says a lot for the potential that we have as human beings. Perhaps faced with the ultimate threat (extinction whether by natural or man-made means) may cause the supra-survival instinct to kick in....we can only hope so."

Well, I've always been a short term pessimist and a long term optimist. In the short term, I seem to be right more than I am wrong

Our behavior as a species does improve over time, believe it or not. This isn't to gloss over the horrors of the last 100 years, but slavery, torture, long grinding wars, mass rape in the aftermath of wars, etc. used to be even more common.

This is partly due to wealth, democracy, science, etc., etc., but I do think we have some capacity to learn from history. It just takes a LOT longer than it should...

Peter

[Al_U_Card]

pbleighton, on Jan 10 2007, 02:51 PM, said:

Our behavior as a species does improve over time, believe it or not.  This isn't to gloss over the horrors of the last 100 years, but slavery, torture, long grinding wars, mass rape in the aftermath of wars, etc. used to be even more common.

A sad commentary, all things considered, but the founding fathers whatever their own foibles and shortcomings, had vision, purpose and resolve....the three elements that always ensure the survival and endurance of what they create.

[Winstonm]

Good to see you back, Dwayne.

[Winstonm]

Quote

"MOGADISHU, Somalia, Jan. 9 — Somali officials said Tuesday that dozens of people were killed in an American airstrike on Sunday, most of them Islamist fighters fleeing in armed pickup trucks across a remote, muddy stretch of the KenyaSomalia border.

American officials said terrorists from Al Qaeda had been the target of the strike, which they said had killed about a dozen people. But the officials acknowledged that the identities of the victims were still unknown". (emphasis added)

So now we just kill everyone in a turban and sort it out later? Isn't there a term for killing people with whom you are not at war, not on the battlefied, and whose identities you don't even know?

[mike777]

Hmm didn't some country just attack and take over Somalia without declaring War?
Where is the UN? Where is Europe or Canada? Now the USA is sending in Gunships and shooting up the countryside? Is that even legal? Where are the Democrats? I heard no outrage or calls for impeachment today, did I miss them?

[pbleighton]

"Hmm didn't some country just attack and take over Somalia without declaring War?
Where is the UN? Where is Europe or Canada? Now the USA is sending in Gunships and shooting up the countryside? Is that even legal? Where are the Democrats? I heard no outrage or calls for impeachment today, did I miss them?"

Yes, Ethiopia invaded Somalia with our help, and we have killed people there.

Just a matter of priorities, Mike. Bush is now unilaterally sending another 24,000 troops to Iraq. That has everyone's attention right now, for some weird reason.

Do you support this?

Peter

[Winstonm]

"According to the Los Angeles Times, “corporate and scientific documents disclosed that the American companies are well positioned to pursue Somalia’s most promising potential oil reserves the moment the nation is pacified.”

I'm not sure if that was a military plane that opened fire - some reports suggest it might have been an Exon-Mobil Learjet equipped with cannons....

[Winstonm]

Quote

Bush is now unilaterally sending another 24,000 troops to Iraq. That has everyone's attention right now, for some weird reason.

As Commander-in-chief, Bush has the right to send troops - but Congress has the right to refuse to finance an escalation in the conflict, don't they?


Latest polls show 61% want the war to end now - where are the newly elected Democrats now?

[Al_U_Card]

I gather that the next Spring Break movie will be...."Republicans gone wild" and I don't expect to see much T&A.

[Winstonm]

I think I just had what the alcoholics call "a moment of clarity."

The U.S. backs the Ethiopian warlords - yes, the very same warlords who dragged around in celebration the bodies of 18 U.S. soldiers they had killed - to help overthrow the evil Somalia Muslim leaders, and now we send multiple airstrikes against the Muslims who were overthrown, killing 200, some British and Canadian citizens, while claiming to target 3 - count them 3 al-Qaeda leaders.

Israel is planning a bombing campaign against Iran, which happens to be a Muslim nation just at the time that the U.S. is sending another 21.500 troops to Iraq and deploying a second aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf. And who is out bestest buddy ally in the middle east? Wonder what the U.S. response would be if Israel attacked Iran?

Afghanistan had the evil Taliban - who are....Muslim.

Iraq had the.....well, they had something, else Bush wouldn't have invaded - oh, yeah...they had a lot of Muslims.

Oh, that moment of clarity? This isn't about terror or oil or whose bombs are bigger - this is plain and simply a holy war on Islam. American Jihad, by God.

Yippee-yo-kayay.

[mike777]

The Democrats are funding Ethiopia so oil companies can get rich?
More tax billions/money going to Haliburton in Iraq?

I knew the Republicans love to kill and get their oil buddies rich but where are the Democrats?

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Jan 10 2007, 09:13 PM, said:

The Democrats are funding Ethiopia so oil companies can get rich?
More tax  billions/money going to Haliburton in Iraq?

I knew the Republicans love to kill and get their oil buddies rich but where are the Democrats?

The PAC money comes from the same sources, no matter which party, which means there is no real party separation.

Democans and Republicrats, all from the same cesspool.

[pbleighton]

"Bush is now unilaterally sending another 24,000 troops to Iraq. That has everyone's attention right now, for some weird reason.

Do you support this?"

Still waiting, Mike

Peter

[helene_t]

keylime, on Jan 10 2007, 05:51 PM, said:

[....]
2. I consider communism and socialism as being a self-limiting concept that has repeatedly failed due to the will of the individual wanting freedoms of choice, speech, and dissent.
[......]
The concept of capitalism - free enterprise, low taxes, high promotion of basic rights, and the emphasis of self-service over government control, to be is nearly unlimited.

Funny, to me you sound like a liberalist, alas in the way we use the word here in Europe. I know this is not so relevant in an American context, where you are consider "liberal" if you have anti-liberal attitudes to many issues such as gun control and taxes.

But whatever name you use for it, isn't the current government pretty much the anti-thesis of what you write here? The central government under Bush has a high level of spending, it doesn't excactly give a high priority to basic human rights whether at home or abroad, and it seeks to interfere in everything that in a freedom-seeking mind isn't the central goverment's business:
- whether a woman carries a pregnancy to term or not
- whether researchers use embryo-derived stem cells or not
- what NYT feels like publishing
- whether condoms play a role in AIDS prevention strategy or not, and what scientific goverment instutes publish about the relative efficacy of alternative strategies
- whether NASA's next Mars mission should be manned or unmanned
- whether people burn some piece of textile that happens to be decorated with some stars and some stribes
- whether people sniff cocaine or not

Yes, I know you have strong feelings about some of those issues. I have strong feelings about a lot of issues with which a central government should not interfere. For example, I hate most aspects of popular culture, such as religion, violent computer games and drugs. Yet I would never vote for a party that seeked to prevent people from doing such, IMHO, discusting thing.

[mike777]

I hope it works.

I do not understand enough about the plan to support it or not.
It seems the Iraqi army lives in open sewers with broken rifles and a sever lack of leadership, bullets and equipment. How are they going to take the lead?
IF the war is unwinable we should start pulling out troops but the consquences will be horrific with the aftermath similiar to vietnam with regional wars where millions may die.

If this is one last effort to win(whatever that means) I can only hope so.

[Al_U_Card]

The best way to maintain control is to ensure that there is no one (competent) to pass the baton to.......

As far as 20,000 more...to pacify Baghdad? Next it will be 5,000 more to pacify the "green zone"...its all a smoke screen....buying time until their next little "surprise" is ready. It may have to be a rush job so be ready to look closely at it, the clues will most likely be there.....but will we be able to do anything with them???

[keylime]

I don't think 20K is enough frankly. Granted the head honcho from EUCOM is coming to CENTCOM (an Admiral thing-a-ma-bob) which is encouraging to me; I simply hope that finally we can release our fighting forces to WIN. We'll see; I am not that overly encouraged as of yet.