[1eyedjack]

There is an eternal conflict within a sentencing structure that attempts both to deter and to punish.

If you imposed a million pound/dollar/euro/whatever fine for a parking violation it would, generally, be an effective deterrent. However it would be an excessive punishment for the occasional recipient of a ticket.

If you impose the death penalty on a terrorist it would arguably have no deterrent impact whatsoever. It might even have the reverse effect, martyrdom having some attractions to the idealist. On the other hand, depending on your values, it might be regarded as an appropriate punishment.

[helene_t]

1eyedjack, on Jan 1 2007, 12:14 PM, said:

If you impose the death penalty on a terrorist it would arguably have no deterrent impact whatsoever. It might even have the reverse effect, martyrdom having some attractions to the idealist. On the other hand, depending on your values, it might be regarded as an appropriate punishment.

But the psychological explanation for our desire for revanche is the need to deter. So their shouldn't be a conflict between the two.

As for you parking violation example: if all violators get caught, the optimal fine is whatever cost the violation imposes on society. This extreme case of a fine is also known as a fee.

Suppose the chance of getting caught is 1/10. Then the optimal fine is ten times the cost imposed on society. This may seem unjust for those violators who only commit one such offense in their life and happen to get caught. In the case of crimes that are extremely unlikely to be punished this may be a serious dilemma. I wouldn't be too woried about parking violations, though.

[keylime]

I only have 2 comments:

1. Many forget that this was Iraqi law not our own that was used.
2. Richard, why is it that when someone disagrees definitively with your view of the world that they are deemed "less than human"? I can understand the point of not wanting capital punishment but to say someone's pisspoor?

Yes I have my view on it but it's mine.

[pbleighton]

"Many forget that this was Iraqi law not our own that was used."

Oh, please. As I have said, he was an evil butcher, but:

He was tried at U.S. behest, by U.S. puppets, in a show trial (one of the judges was dismissed for being insuffiently pro-conviction), and he was held in U.S. custody until the Iraqis decided to execute him.

Thought experiment: if he had been acquitted, would we have released him? No way.

Peter

[uday]

The watercooler generally runs with far less supervision than the other forum, but it isn't usenet.

[luke warm]

mike777, on Dec 31 2006, 12:02 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

Any country which has the death penalty can hardly lay claim to be a civilized country.

Ok....what do you do with people who kill people in jail? Just wondering. ~~

good question, mike... if there were any answers they got lost in personal attacks, which makes them hard to find

[the hog]

luke warm, on Jan 2 2007, 07:43 AM, said:

mike777, on Dec 31 2006, 12:02 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

Any country which has the death penalty can hardly lay claim to be a civilized country.

Ok....what do you do with people who kill people in jail? Just wondering. ~~

good question, mike... if there were any answers they got lost in personal attacks, which makes them hard to find

Jimmy, I have known you for a long time and think you are a nice guy, but this comment disappoints me. You attempt to restrain these people, perhaps in some form of solitary confinement. Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies.

[pbleighton]

"Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies."

Ron, I agree with your conclusion, but I would state the reason a little differently:

Examples matter, and in a democratic society the examples set by the government are paramount. Capital punishment sends a very clear message: killing people you hate is an acceptable way to solve problems.

It is no coincidence that the U.S. is nearly alone among economically advanced democracies in our retention of capital punishment, and also has a homicide rate an order of magnitude higher than our economic competitors.

And as for the foreign policy correlations....

Peter

[Al_U_Card]

How is it that such intelligent, utopian oriented individuals have generated such a dystopian society?....It's not so much that we aren't intelligent enough its just that we have ingrained in our "survival" instinct to always try to achieve consensus (safety in numbers) which ends up providing the lowest common denominator....

Cars and industries that don't pollute?

People who are treated with dignity no matter what their origin or status?

A thought process that centers on humanity rather than on comparison?

We are all able to do so, it is just a matter of choice and time.....if we still have enough of both left....

[the hog]

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Winstonm]

The death penalty does not deter murder - it prevents repetition of murder; therefore, the death penalty assumes further murderous acts, which is not validated statistically.

The death penalty is simply retribution - if you believe in retribution you would support the death penalty; if you believe in punishment, you would be more likely to support life sentences without parole.

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

Jimmy, I have known you for a long time and think you are a nice guy, but this comment disappoints me. You attempt to restrain these people, perhaps in some form of solitary confinement. Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies.

ron, i think you may have misunderstood my post... i'm against the death penalty, but that's a personal choice... my beliefs have nothing to do with my post, though... mike asked a question and got an ad hominem attack, which in anyone's book is a bush (no pun intended) league tactic not conducive to any discussion... i've had many disagreements with different posters, but i'd challenge anyone to show personal attacks i've made

sometimes people make the mistake of thinking that things i post are my personal beliefs, but i'd say it runs 50/50... i can argue a point from both a personal and philosophical perspective, and don't often differentiate between the two (even when there is a difference)

[the hog]

Ok Jimmy, you are quite right. I didn't think it was a personal attack on anyone, but I did think you were supporting a comment made by Mike which I really thought was somewhat offensive.
My apologies once again.

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Jan 1 2007, 11:53 PM, said:

Ok Jimmy, you are quite right. I didn't think it was a personal attack on anyone, but I did think you were supporting a comment made by Mike which I really thought was somewhat offensive.
My apologies once again.

no apology necessary, ron... happy new year

[FrancesHinden]

sceptic, on Jan 2 2007, 04:05 AM, said:

Life sentence without parole is this not as bad as a slow death

No it isn't. It might depend on the coniditions in the prison, but life sentence with no parole in a typical Western European prison or execution? I know which I'd take.

[Rain]

I don't know.

I am mostly opposed to the death penalty...but now and then I find myself wanting to get rid of some heinous people. Forever!

People who seem to add pure misery to the world.

Saddam is one, so good riddance. I am happy he's gone forever.

[onoway]

I used to be against the death penalty..for one thing too many people are found guilty and later found to be innocent and the death penalty makes that particular wrong a bit difficult to correct in any meaningful way. That said, I now am ambivilent if not pro execution for people who are PROVEN in a true court of law to have behaved in such a fashion as to make it questionable whether the accused has any capacity to be trusted to behave in a "civilized" fashion. I am thinking specifically of people who rape babies (it happens, believe it or not) and that level of antisocial behaviour. To me, anyone who behaves in such a fashion has virtually rejected his right to be called human and should be executed like any other rabid animal.

However, I also think that should there be any doubt whatsoever, there should be some sort of failsafe where people who are found guilty could be put into some sort of cold storage...I read some time ago about an anesthetist who was investigating various natural drugs used in various cultures, including those used to create a state where the person was in a state of suspended animation, so to speak..able to see and hear but unable to move. it seems to me that should such a situation be available it would be a much more terrifying and preventative prospect for the person comtemplating murder or such...be a whole lot cheaper to run than most prisons are now, and in the event of a mistake the person could be restored to some sort of life. Admittedly, it sounds science-fictionish, but how much more so than instant communication throughout the world through the internet?

as far as Saddam...he lived by the sword, so to speak, so if you play in that sandpatch..unfortunately Bush is also playing in that sandpatch and it seems unlikely he will ever be called to account in this world for his actions. Even people whose parents were killed by Saddam acknowlege it was not a fair trial. It is unfortuante that someone who claims to be trying to bring the world to democracy seems to have so little faith in democracy and the rule of law actually working.....

[Winstonm]

Quote

I read some time ago about an anesthetist who was investigating various natural drugs used in various cultures, including those used to create a state where the person was in a state of suspended animation, so to speak..able to see and hear but unable to move.

There's a thought....we put them into this state and then auction off their body parts until they die from "natural" causes - like liver failure (in this case the failure to have a liver any longer.)

However, another part of the post is a good question - is there a point with sociopaths when they could be deemed sub-human? Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez come to mind as two convicted serial killers with no consciense and no remorse - without this aspect of "humanity", were they still human?

Just for the record, I am mostly anti-death penalty but can see in the case of repetetive behavior where it might have some impact and stop future crimes - in the case of Ted Bundy, he escaped jail in Colorado only to murder again in Florida.

[onoway]

well I would be sorry to think that everyone would jump to the same gruesome possibilities as you did..I certainly never suggested any such thing as auctioning off body parts...would be a bit difficult to restore a person to society in the event of wrongful conviction if you had chopped them to bits for the highest bidder.

a question..would you WANT to have Ted Bundy's liver? or anything else?

[Winstonm]

"a question..would you WANT to have Ted Bundy's liver?[QUOTE]

with some fava beans and a nice Chianti....???

BTW, I wasn't saying you suggested any such thing...just some dark humor on a dark (but important) subject.