[kenberg]

I was S, the heart opener, on the following auction

Scoring: IMP


1♥ 2♥ 4NT Pass
5♣ Pass 6♣ Pass
6♥ AllPass

---

2♥ showed spades and a minor, 4N was rkc for hearts, 5♣ showed 1 or 4. That's where the understanding ceased. In some advanced versions of rkc, 6♣ askes about second or third round club controls but we don't play that so I guess 6♣ shows clubs and I should pass. My bad. But as I though about this further: What was partner planning on doing over 5♦ (showing 0 or 3)? He cannot get out in 5NT. 5♥ is to play, 5♠ asks about the Q (of hearts), and 5NT asks for my cheapest K. Further, it's something of a fluke that he holds the K of hearts, allowing him to interpret my keycard response as giving the count on aces. If his K of hearts and x of diamonds was the K of diamonds and x of hearts he would be equally interested in a club slam but unable to interpret an rkc response usefully.

So: Maybe we should revert to regular blackwood after interference? Or at least in the case where partner could have set hearts as trump (as here by bidding 2♠ over 2♥)?

We need to deal with some issues here, advice is sought.

Thanks, Ken

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The simple soultion, make a forcing raise
of partners suit,
... 2S as limit or better is one option.

And have the option to bid your own
suit in a forcing way,
... play a direct 3C as natural and forcing,
while with weak clubs go though 2NT
(Good-Bad), or play it the the other way
round.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Echognome]

4NT agrees hearts. So I think the mistake is North's.

I wouldn't fault a direct 6♣ (no south will move over that). However, starting with a natural and forcing 3♣ will at least get the correct suit agreed.

[Free]

I never understand why people bid RKC out of nothing, especially if it sets trumps, to sign off in a new suit at 6-level. What's wrong with a simple 2♠?

[kenrexford]

This makes no sense. 2♠ would presumably agree hearts and limit+, which might be problematic if the resulting auction bypasses 4NT and partner did wish to agree hearts (a different hand). Thus, 4NT as RKCB for hearts makes some sense.

4NT as RKCB for hearts, but a second suit might be the focus or contempltaed end contract, also makes sense, if that is your agreement.

If 6♣ has no agreed meaning, then North is clearly at fault. For two reasons.

First, if 6♣ has a theoretical meaning (debated here), then why not start with the clear 3♣ call? Going ambiguous unnecessarily makes little sense.

Second, if 6♣ has no meaning, then there are obviously no right or wrong choices for South after 6♣.

The only way South has any blame is if the agreement, or perhaps a default agreement in ambiguous auctions, was violated.

Sure, 6♥ might also be a "breah" if 6♣ was a grand slam try, but hedging in an ambiguous auction usually pays in the long run. On that note, it seems that North also had the last chance to hedge, with a 6NT call. It might not make on a heart lead, but I bet it actually does.

[pigpenz]

yes i agree with JUSTIN, 4nt asks about key cards in hearts and tends to imply heart support but once partner bids 6♣ that is to play.

But i would tend to come up with an unusual vs unusual solution for defense to michaels.

[kenberg]

I accept the blame for not passing 6C. I did not think it asked for later control. Whatever I might have thought (I didn't really think enough) I was sure that it wasn't asking for third round control. Not much is left except natural. I suppose it could be a source of tricks in clubs and all keys, inviting 7H, but that's far fetched w/o discussion. It's sort of a know your partner thing, but all in all I accept the blame, or most of it here. My slight out is that since partner is stuck after a 5D response it seems that he may as well just blast to 6. The hell with the grand.

He could have bid 3C, my thought at the time, but it it might not help much. Say I rebid 3N, and he rebids 4C. Do I cue 4S with my stiff club? I suppose, but I wouldn't be happy.

What he wants to do is to check on my aces, then bid some number of clubs, and system/partner should allow this. Here partner (me) failed but it seems that slight variations can lead to system failure. A 5D response by me would cause grave damage and, as mentioned above, it's lucky pard has the king of hearts to enable him to properly read the 5C bid.


So I want to push on the following: Should we, in some or all competitive auctions, declare that rkc is off. The obvious choice (other than always off in comp or always still on in comp) is to say it is on if no forcing bid to set trump is available (eg 1H-(3S)), and off when there is a way to set trumps and 4N bidder does not set them. That would make it off here, and we would have been playing 6C.


Along these lines, after the 2H intervention, what do you make of 4C? We play splinters of course, but I have heard it suggested that after interference it may be better to play splinters only in their suit (so 3S=splinter here) but have splinters off in other suits. Perhaps useful, but only if there is a meaning then attached to 4C. Anyone out there using some non-splinter meaning?

Anyway, I should have passed. But I have been lackadaisical about some possible problems in rkc and I submit the general problem for discussion. It is unlikely to be a virgin topic.



Ken

[kenberg]

pigpenz, on Dec 8 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

yes i agree with JUSTIN, 4nt asks about key cards in hearts and tends to imply heart support but once partner bids 6♣ that is to play.

But i would tend to come up with an unusual vs unusual solution for defense to michaels.

We play U/U style for Michaels if it goes 1D-(2D) since there are two known suits. With 1H-(2H), 2S=LR+ but minor suit bids are natural. It seems they must be.

[mikeh]

4N was a silly bid: it was gambling that S would show enough keycards to justify the call, and S did not. I disagree with Justin here: I see no logical reason for 6♣ to be an offer to play: to me it announces all keycards and is a grand slam try.

I have no trouble with the concept that asking for keycards does not set the trump: but the only exceptions (for me) are when the 4N bidder bids above opener's suit (had opener bid 1♣, and responder bid 6♥ over the keycard response) or notrump.

One reason that this approach works is that 3♣ by north should be natural and forcing. If opener bids 3N, 4♣ announces a strong desire to have ♣s as trump, strong slam interest (altho responder may pass 4N or 5♣) and no interest in making a straightforward quanitative try.

On the given hand, opener should move over 4♣, either by way of 4♦ (understanding that responder's 4♥ bid, if made, is not an offer to play.... neither opener nor responder have shown a desire to play ♥s and both had opportunity to do so) or 4♠.

If opener were to bid 4♠, it is an interesting question as to whether 4N by responder should be an offer to play, keycard in ♣s or a bid that says "I have too much to signoff in 5♣ but not enough to force to slam.. do you have anything useful over there?". The latter treatment is my agreement in my current serious partnership.

[sceptic]

can he not bid 5spades ( highest non bid suit) after 5 diamonds showing 0 or 3 as partner drop me off at 5nt please?

[kenberg]

This argument that just as 3C could be used to show clubs (it could, we play it as forcing) also 2S could have been used to set hearts came up in our discussion and in fact was the point at which I became convinced that I was wrong in bidding over 6C. I wasn't all that much claiming before that I was right, only that I wanted to think about it. But since partner had a clear way of telling me that hearts were trump and then bidding rkc, I am convinced I should have passed 6C. Our teammates, btw, play negative free bids so a direct 3C bid would have been unavailable to them. Settling the implications of that is their problem since I avoid nfbs like the plague.

I hope to hear more about the possibility of making rkc off in these hopefully well defined circumstances where the asker could have first set trump but didn't. As useful as rkc is, it is also useful to be able to get out in 5NT (or 5C) when there are not enough aces. That's going to be a lot easier a lot oftener if we haven't cluttered up the space with the Q ask and such things. I don't have a confident view here about what is best.

[sceptic]

Quote

4NT agrees hearts. So I think the mistake is North's.

I thought you could use 4NT there to ask about the Keycards as hearts set, but if you made a bid in a suit that was not part of your agreements i.e. 6 clubs, then that was where you wanted to play as you were captain of the ship?

[kenberg]

sceptic, on Dec 8 2006, 02:35 PM, said:

can he not bid 5spades ( highest non bid suit) after 5 diamonds showing 0 or 3 as partner drop me off at 5nt please?

No, 5S asks for the trump Q. After a 1-4 or 0-3 response you need, or you usually have, a Q ask and the lowest ranking non-playable suit is usually it.

[keylime]

I disagree with the notion that 4NT is just "keycard" versus "keycard for hearts". I have been of the view for a lengthy period of time that keycard for last suit bid often loses more than it gains.

I do tho think a much better auction is possible once you start with 3♣. I dislike the 2S as LR or better for hearts with correction into clubs, because pard may not be in on the act until it's too late.

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

[HeartA]

I agree with Justin that 6C was to play. If North wanted to ask further, there are choices available below 6 level: 5D, 5S and 5NT. Before a suit is agreed, 4NT could be defined as Ace (not KC) asking.

[blackshoe]

keylime, on Dec 8 2006, 05:04 PM, said:

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

When I can get my partners to agree to it, I prefer to play that when you can explicitly agree a suit and make the auction forcing, a jump directly to 4NT is simple Blackwood. The problem lies in getting them to agree to it (and then to remember it ).

[neilkaz]

blackshoe, on Dec 9 2006, 12:02 AM, said:

keylime, on Dec 8 2006, 05:04 PM, said:

I think there is considerable merit to treating this as old Blackie instead of keycard in this type of situation.

When I can get my partners to agree to it, I prefer to play that when you can explicitly agree a suit and make the auction forcing, a jump directly to 4NT is simple Blackwood. The problem lies in getting them to agree to it (and then to remember it ).

Agreeing with you 100% and stressing that it can sometimes pay to not make the auction confusing for PD. Thus I prefer to start with 3♣ here, although I would play 4NT as ace asking only here and would bid it if 100% sure PD would know it isn't RKC.

If you start with 3♣, do you really think that the opps are going to bid beyond 4♠ and prevent your next 4NT call ?

.. neilkaz ..