[Apollo81]

♠AQ1043
♥A54
♦KJ2
♣K10

All Red, IMPs

(2♥)-2NT-(4♥)-pass
(pass)-???

I dont care if you disagree with 2NT.
Thats what you bid and now deal with it.

[Echognome]

I pass. I believe in one view per hand. If we viewed it best described as a 2NT bid (and not saying I agree or disagree), then that's the view I took. Bidding now might be offering up a huge penalty for no reason.

[inquiry]

A rule to live by, once you have limited both your shape and stregnth, partner is in control of the auction. His pass of 4♥ did not call for any additional action by you. If you think your fifth spade is so special, you should have bid 2♠ rather than 2NT. Here, you have limited and described your hand with 2NT... pass now and live with it...

[pigpenz]

at this point its a crap shoot i would tend to risk the double since if we are going minus its only a couple more imps, 4♠ spades could be a big loss for us, pass seems to conservative.

[Walddk]

I haven't been invited to the party. Pass.

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

You decided to show 15-17 bal. with a
heart stopper instead of the 5 card spade
suit, which is certainly ok.

Partner was not interested, he did not show
any live, just because the partner to the 2H
opener bid 4H, does not mean he is broke.

Bid 4S and be the hero, but more likely you
will turn a plus into a minus, ... and dont expect
partner to react kind and understanding, if you
go for -1100.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Apollo81]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 8 2006, 11:33 AM, said:

Pass.

You decided to show 15-17 bal. with a
heart stopper instead of the 5 card spade
suit, which is certainly ok.

Partner was not interested, he did not show
any live, just because the partner to the 2H
opener bid 4H, does not mean he is broke.

Bid 4S and be the hero, but more likely you
will turn a plus into a minus, ... and dont expect
partner to react kind and understanding, if you
go for -1100.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I only go for 1100 when i overcall an 18 HCP 1NT over their 1M or when i have an 8-card suit =P

[kenrexford]

This is IMP's. The relevance is that 4♥X, making, is not that tremendous of a loss. I like for a double in this auction to show that I really want to bid 4♠. If partner is good with that, maybe we make or break close to even. If not, I'll hope for a set but settle for holding it to no overtricks. I might lose that battle also, but I just cannot stand it.

On a good day, I defend 5♥.

[Apollo81]

Jlall, on Dec 8 2006, 11:32 AM, said:

I would like to join the chorus of "we've bid our hand now we must pass..." but it's really tempting to, like the title indicates, mastermind. I mean we know partner has 0-1 hearts...give him Jxxx x Qxxx xxxx and both games might be making. Of course he could just have 3 spades, or even be 21 in the majors and we could be beating them and going for a big number...

I would pass but I'll admit to being tempted. I know you don't care but 2N is pretty horrible with Axx of hearts, this is one of the many reasons why.

I'll admit 2NT wouldn't win in a bidding contest. It isn't __so__ bad though. If I had bid 2♠ it would also go 4♥pp, and now I havent shown my extras. Am I supposed to double now? Similar problems IMO. At least pard is likely marked with a few spades in the auction we had.

BTW, no one has mentioned that LHO failed to double 2NT. Should that matter?

[Echognome]

Apollo81, on Dec 8 2006, 03:42 PM, said:

I'll admit 2NT wouldn't win in a bidding contest. It isn't __so__ bad though. If I had bid 2♠ it would also go 4♥pp, and now I havent shown my extras. Am I supposed to double now? Similar problems IMO. At least pard is likely marked with a few spades in the auction we had.

BTW, no one has mentioned that LHO failed to double 2NT. Should that matter?

It's a different problem of course. You haven't shown extras, but partner is now in a position to raise with a spade fit. If you now double to show that you want to compete on, partner makes his decision bearing in mind you have 5 spades (in other words partner makes a much more informed decision!).

Compare the two auctions:
(2♥) - 2♠ - (4♥) - P; (P) - Dbl

(2♥) - 2NT - (4♥) - P; (P) - Dbl/4♠

If you bid 4♠ in the 2nd auction, you are effectively overcalling 4♠. I don't think anyone would agree you have the hand for that.

Now comparing the doubles, the first auction is much more informative than the 2nd. Furthermore if partner has say Jxxxx of spades and not much in high cards, he's going to be much more willing to compete if you've overcalled in spades rather than if you'd bid NT.

Whether you pass or not in each of the auctions is up to your judgment, but If you feel that you want to compete at the 4-level, I'd much rather have bid 2♠.

[Apollo81]

Echognome, on Dec 8 2006, 11:51 AM, said:

Apollo81, on Dec 8 2006, 03:42 PM, said:

I'll admit 2NT wouldn't win in a bidding contest.  It isn't __so__ bad though.  If I had bid 2♠ it would also go 4♥pp, and now I havent shown my extras.  Am I supposed to double now?  Similar problems IMO.  At least pard is likely marked with a few spades in the auction we had.

BTW, no one has mentioned that LHO failed to double 2NT.  Should that matter?

It's a different problem of course. You haven't shown extras, but partner is now in a position to raise with a spade fit. If you now double to show that you want to compete on, partner makes his decision bearing in mind you have 5 spades (in other words partner makes a much more informed decision!).

Compare the two auctions:
(2♥) - 2♠ - (4♥) - P; (P) - Dbl

(2♥) - 2NT - (4♥) - P; (P) - Dbl/4♠

If you bid 4♠ in the 2nd auction, you are effectively overcalling 4♠. I don't think anyone would agree you have the hand for that.

Now comparing the doubles, the first auction is much more informative than the 2nd. Furthermore if partner has say Jxxxx of spades and not much in high cards, he's going to be much more willing to compete if you've overcalled in spades rather than if you'd bid NT.

Whether you pass or not in each of the auctions is up to your judgment, but If you feel that you want to compete at the 4-level, I'd much rather have bid 2♠.

My point was that I'm not convinced that my hand is good enough for a double having overcalled 2♠. Obviously if I double partner will understand the kind of hand I have.

If I bid 2♠ and it goes 4♥pp, I know pard prolly doesnt have 4♠. If I bid 2NT and it goes 4♥pp, I know pard doesnt have too much strength. Either way there is a piece of the puzzle that is missing. I'm not denying that 2♠ is the percentage bid, I'm just saying its not all that different than 2NT in terms of advantages/disadvantages.

[Walddk]

Apollo81, on Dec 8 2006, 05:55 PM, said:

I'm not denying that 2♠ is the percentage bid, I'm just saying its not all that different than 2NT in terms of advantages/disadvantages.

Yes, there is a significant difference. When you bid 2NT, you have told your partner about shape and point range. Now it's up to him to decide if we are going anywhere over 4♥. If you had bid 2♠, however, you could have a much weaker hand and then it makes sense to re-open with a double.

After you chose 2NT (I know you don't care, but I think it's plain wrong), you are out of it once partner doesn't co-operate.

Roland

[mikeh]

I know that I am in a minority, but if I were forced to sit in for a player who had bid 2N (I would NOT have made that bid unless I had missorted my hand, for two reasons: the anti-positional solitary ♥ stopper and 5th spade), I am not simply going to sit there and pass. Nor am I doubling: don't tell me that double is takeout: it is penalty, pure and simple. Partner is not pulling with Kxxx x Qxxx Qxxx or Jxxx x Qxxx Qxxx. And these are constructions on which we need to be bidding.

Bear in mind that LHO is NOT loaded for bear. With, say, KJx Qxx AQxx Axx, he doesn't bid 4♥: he says double. So partner is marked with some useful values.

I am going to mastermind... which goes against much of what I have posted over the past couple of years, and I justify it on the basis that I truly would never be in this position: this is a clear 2♠ followed by double hand. Look at either of the 4=1=4=4 hands I gave for partner and you can see that we'd already be in 4♠ had I made the normal overcall. Having created a virtually assured no-win scenario, I am going to try to correct it, with apologies ready no matter what the outcome.

Edit: I noticed that I forgot to say what I was bidding: understandable in light of how egregious bidding seems to be, but i bid 4♠. In one sense, maybe I am not going to much worse of than if I had overcalled 2♠ and now doubled: it is highly unlikely that partner would be sitting for the double. So we'd probably be in 4♠ anyway (I know, maybe LHO has KJxx in ♠, maybe partner would successfully or otherwise bid 5minor or 4N pick a minor, but the odds are we get to 4♠)

[whereagles]

I'm a masterminder as well, mostly because of the dog that didn't bark in the night (e.g. LHO didn't dbl 2NT for blood)..

4♠ it is. If pard has that 2-1 majors he'll know to pull this out into his 6-card minor (or 4NT with 55 minor).

[Apollo81]

whereagles, on Dec 8 2006, 12:46 PM, said:

I'm a masterminder as well, mostly because of the dog that didn't bark in the night (e.g. LHO didn't dbl 2NT for blood)..

4♠ it is. If pard has that 2-1 majors he'll know to pull this out into his 6-card minor (or 4NT with 55 minor).

or his 7-card minor =)

[cherdano]

whereagles, on Dec 8 2006, 06:46 PM, said:

I'm a masterminder as well, mostly because of the dog that didn't bark in the night (e.g. LHO didn't dbl 2NT for blood)..

4♠ it is. If pard has that 2-1 majors he'll know to pull this out into his 6-card minor (or 4NT with 55 minor).

Why does partner know to pull? If I sat down with a random (have to say random because none of my semi-regular partners would ever bid this sequence) partner who bid 2N then 4S, I would start to wonder which of his two bids was the mastermind. Maybe he has ♠AKQ-7th and ♥KQx?

As partner, I would pass, say glp and find another table after hand.

[cherdano]

Apollo81, on Dec 8 2006, 05:12 PM, said:

I dont care if you disagree with 2NT.
Thats what you bid and now deal with it.

Then I don't care for the problem.

[sathyab]

I think the good-ole' "you have bid your hand once, so don't bid the same hand again" advice is valid only for those hands that fit the bidding sequence exactly such as making a notrump bid where you have defined both your strength and shape fairly narrowly. For every one such hand there're that ten others that don't fit in one way or another. In this case it's because the first bid you made was a close choice which could have worked out under different circumstances, but doesn't now. Do you stay fixed for making what appears to be poor choice of your first bid or try to undo it ?

Your 2nt bid is only a slight distortion in terms of shape, after all if you had one fewer spade and one more minor card you'd still be bidding 2nt wouldn't you ? I'd expect partner to make a card-showing double of 4h if he had something useful. He didn't, neither did he bid his imagined/imaginary seven card minor suit. So that rules out a penalty double by me. So that leaves 4s. How likely would 4s work out opposite a partner that couldn't double 4h ? Not very well, I'd estimate, hence the pass.

[Apollo81]

sathyab, on Dec 8 2006, 04:01 PM, said:

..... He didn't, neither did he bid his imagined/imaginary seven card minor suit.....

Oh his 7-card minor was quite real on this deal:

J9
x
10xxxxxx
xxx

4♥ cold since the strong hand is on lead.
5♦ only down 1. 4♠ was misdefended and was also only down 1.

LHO has ♠xxx ♥Q9x ♦A ♣AQ8xxx

The defense was ♦A cashed, heart to ♥K and ♥A, spade to ♠J and ♠K, cJ to king and ace. ♣Q cashed. Heart. Now I get out for down 1.

Better to be lucky than good eh? =P Perhaps pard should have taken this out to 5♦, but the jury's still out on that one...