[keylime]

Sectional, afternoon session, Saturday.

MPs, white on red, dealt:

K
AKJxx
x
KT98xx

The auction commences:

(1♠) P (P) ?

You have available the following calls:

1NT - Raptor style
2C/H - natural.

Bid choice?

[hrothgar]

2♣

BTW, I can see arguments for either 2♣ or 2♥. I'd never consider a raptor NT with this hand.

[pbleighton]

2C.

At imps I might bid 2H.

Peter

[kenberg]

Especially with the opponents vulnerable there is a reasonble chance I can bid 2C first and then hearts twice. Either the opponents or partner might cross me up, but that's my plan.

[kenrexford]

None of the above. 2♠, Michaels.

[pclayton]

You really play Raptor in the balance? okdokey.

I wouldn't raptor with this; but 6-5 come alive so I'll bid 2♠ .

[keylime]

We can't bid 2♠ as Michaels by passed hand, hence the trouble.

2nd part of question now. Let's say you bid 2♥. Opener competes to 2♠ and pard doubles 2♠.

What do you do then? How would you read the double?

[the hog]

Dwayne, given the conditions of the system, I would bid 2H. I would not contemplate a 2C bid as the most likely game for us, if there is one, is in H not C.

[kenrexford]

Is this a question of bridge logic, or an exercise in "guess the agreements?"

Assuming the inability to show a strong (playing) two-suiter, I'll expect the double to indicate values. However, I am boxed in, because 3♣ could be much lighter than this. So, I'll make a wild guess and write down beside the result "discuss Michaels here later" and move on.

My best guess is 3♣.

[Codo]

I would bid raptor and rebid hearts on the lowest possible level. This should show this hand or not?

[bid_em_up]

keylime, on Nov 20 2006, 11:12 PM, said:

We can't bid 2♠ as Michaels by passed hand, hence the trouble.

Why not?

What else can you possibly be using the bid for?

[keylime]

Chuck,

In the passout seat, direct cuebids with us are strong hands, not 2 suited. This is part of the reason we put Raptor in; it was to cater to this.

[bid_em_up]

keylime, on Nov 21 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

Chuck,

In the passout seat, direct cuebids with us are strong hands, not 2 suited. This is part of the reason we put Raptor in; it was to cater to this.

Please define Raptor as used in your methods. I cant find a good definition of it anywhere.

[inquiry]

Another name for raptor is polish NT.. it is an overcall of 1NT that shows a shorter major and a longer minor. Most treatments use it to show 4 in an unbid major, and five plus in an unbid minor. Since the opponents have bid either a minor or a major, one of the two suits are known. In this case, since they opened 1♠, the major is hearts, the minor could be either.

[keylime]

Raptor - 1NT t/o where over a 1M opening, it shows 4 of the other major and 5 of an unknown minor.

2C - pass/correct
2D - what's the major.

[bid_em_up]

keylime, on Nov 21 2006, 11:32 AM, said:

Raptor - 1NT t/o where over a 1M opening, it shows 4 of the other major and 5 of an unknown minor.

2C - pass/correct
2D - what's the major.

Ok, so what is double?

[inquiry]

keylime, on Nov 21 2006, 11:32 AM, said:

Raptor - 1NT t/o where over a 1M opening, it shows 4 of the other major and 5 of an unknown minor.

2C - pass/correct
2D - what's the major.

I suspect this is highly inefficient. Over 1M, there is no need to use 2♦ to ask opener what his major is, give that we know it is the other major.

[keylime]

Sorry, mistyped - got ahead of myself.

2♦ is a "good raise" in hearts.

[Apollo81]

keylime, on Nov 20 2006, 07:29 PM, said:

Sectional, afternoon session, Saturday.

MPs, white on red, dealt:

1NT - Raptor style
2C/H - natural.

Bid choice?

2♠ Michaels seems obvious, but since that's not an option....

Given the description of Raptor supplied in the thread, that seems like the best option to me. You can describe your hand with 2 bids (NT♥) instead of 3 (♣♥♥)

If partner bids 2♣ (p/c ?) I will bid 2♥ which has to be some sort of game try - if pard bids over this I then bid 3♥. If partner bids 2♥ I raise to 3, and if partner bids 2♦ I raise to 4(♥)

[inquiry]

Well.. i would hate to give up 1NT being balanced yuck kind of hand, as then you will not have a bid for those hand. You can always bid hands such as this. For example, you double to show general stregnth, and if partner bids diamonds, bid hearts. NP. Or you can jsut bid your suits.

If I was going to play RAPTOR I would play Misho's funny kind that incorporates concept in TOP/BOTTOM cue-bid with the 4-5 concept. That is, Misho advocates using raptor with four card major and long minor, or at least 5-5 major and minor, but when 5-5 or better, at least an opening hand and the two suits are the top and bottom. So with 5H+ and 5D+ after 1♠ openeing he would never use raptor he would michaels, with 5+H and 5+minor after other minor opening, he wouldn't raptor either, he would use 2NT.

As published elsewhere here, there is a variety of follow ups, where the raptor bidder shows his five card major and by impliation either an opening hand or a super good hand (not inbetween the two extremes). I guess if I was playing Misho funny raptor where 1NT showed hearts and a minor, then on follow up I would show the 5-5 type of hand by the various methods he advocates.

Still, I think it is perfectly acceptable with this hand to overcall 2♥ and then bid 3♣ over their 2♠ rebid if partner didn't bid over it.