[ArcLight]

W/W
pass - pard opens 1 Heart - RHO overcalls 2C

1. What do you respond with:

S: T 9 8 5
H: void
D: A K Q x x
C: T 8 7 x

a - Negative Double
b - 2 Diamonds
c - other
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

2. You make a negative Double
Pard responds 2 Diamonds. Probably 4. Pard knows you have 4+ spades and didnt want to play in NT for now.

What do you bid?

[hrothgar]

Negative, double, followed by 3♦

[inquiry]

This is tooooo good for a 3♦ rebid after a negative double. You have a great fit, and we can assume (hope) partner has at least 4♦. I am more likely to bid 5♦ than I am to bid 3♦. So we are looking at a monster super fit (9 diamonds) and we ahve a void in hearts and partner will have at most 2 in spades or 2 in clubs. Sorry, but I got to make a stronger game try than 3♦.

2♠ is out as I could have weak hand and 5♠ or so. 3♦ is out as it is an underbid. Forget 2NT. That leaves the value bid of 4♦, or a muddy the waters bid of 3♣. The advantage of 3♣ is if partner tries to bail out in 3♦ you could re-evaluate and consider passing.

I think I will bid 3♣ then rebid 4♦ as the strongest game try sequence I can make. If partner bids 3NT or 3♠ over 3♣ I am not stopping short of game. If he rebids 3 of a red suit, I will rebid 4♦. I actually have not given up on SLAM yet on this hand. Wishful thinking of course, but if partner can still be something like, AKx QTxxxx Jxxx A, for instance.

[Echognome]

inquiry, on Nov 17 2006, 04:35 PM, said:

This is tooooo good for a 3♦ rebid after a negative double. You have a great fit, and we can assume (hope) partner has at least 4♦. I am more likely to bid 5♦ than I am to bid 3♦. So we are looking at a monster super fit (9 diamonds) and we ahve a void in hearts and partner will have at most 2 in spades or 2 in clubs. Sorry, but I got to make a stronger game try than 3♦.

2♠ is out as I could have weak hand and 5♠ or so. 3♦ is out as it is an underbid. Forget 2NT. That leaves the value bid of 4♦, or a muddy the waters bid of 3♣. The advantage of 3♣ is if partner tries to bail out in 3♦ you could re-evaluate and consider passing.

I think I will bid 3♣ then rebid 4♦ as the strongest game try sequence I can make. If partner bids 3NT or 3♠ over 3♣ I am not stopping short of game. If he rebids 3 of a red suit, I will rebid 4♦. I actually have not given up on SLAM yet on this hand. Wishful thinking of course, but if partner can still be something like, AKx QTxxxx Jxxx A, for instance.

Just as a clarification. We are un unpassed hand. So how can double followed by a cuebid not be game forcing? How else would you bid a 4=2=4=3 opening hand without a club stopper?

[inquiry]

Echognome, on Nov 17 2006, 11:44 AM, said:

Just as a clarification.  We are un unpassed hand.  So how can double followed by a cuebid not be game forcing?  How else would you bid a 4=2=4=3 opening hand without a club stopper?

Quasi game forcing, to four of your minor fit.... If the fit was in a major, would be game forcing (since four level in game).

You need a bid stronger than 3♦... at least imho. Now 4♦ might be the solution, and 5♦ might be the best bid of all. But I like to leave an escape clause. That escape is 4♦ rebid.

If you play 3♣ cue as 100%, absolute, no question about it game force. Then bid 4♦ or even 5♦ over 2♦.

[inquiry]

Just thought of a note in principle... (does not mean game will make)...

Partner has at least 26 ZARS, and once fit is found he gains two more for his 3-1 or 2-2 in the black suits. So he has 28 minimum. You have 26 and once superfit is found, you can use "misfit" zar points to determine the level. The misfit points gets 5 for hearts, and at least 4 more for black suits (partner can be 4-0, 3-1, or 2-2 in blacks, all translated to 4 card difference). You can't count your fit points if you use superfit, but 26+26+9 = 61 Zar points at a minimum. For 5D you "need" only 57, so a quick analysis using ZAR "superfit" point scale suggest at a minimum 5♦...

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Nov 17 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

This is tooooo good for a 3♦ rebid after a negative double. You have a great fit, and we can assume (hope) partner has at least 4♦. I am more likely to bid 5♦ than I am to bid 3♦. So we are looking at a monster super fit (9 diamonds) and we ahve a void in hearts and partner will have at most 2 in spades or 2 in clubs. Sorry, but I got to make a stronger game try than 3♦.

Partner made the cheapest bid possible in Diamonds, and you're galavanting towards slam.

Your void is opposite partner's hearts.
You have no Black suit controls.
If you do have a "super fit" in Diamonds, your Queen of Diamonds is completely wasted.

RHO couldn't scrape up a club raise, so its doubtful that he has a fit. In turn, that suggests that partner could very well hold the dread 2=5=4=2 shape. I'm an aggressive bidder, but I'm quite happy with my 3♦ bid.

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Nov 17 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

Partner made the cheapest bid possible in Diamonds, and you're galavanting towards slam.

Well, I am basically trying to get to game at this point, I think I made it clear I was using a strong game try, and that after cue-bid, 4♦ is not GF... I will say, and in fact did say, that I don't think slam is out of the question yet, however.

Quote

Your void is opposite partner's hearts.
You have no Black suit controls.
If you do have a "super fit" in Diamonds, your Queen of Diamonds is completely wasted.

Well, let's start with diamonds. If partner has 4♦'s I would not consider the diamond queen wasted.

Next issue, void in hearts. If partner has five hearts AKQ or better, and a weak hand, I suspect he might have chose 2♥, especially to 2♦ on a THREE card suit to at best the jack. So I fully expect partner to have some black suit honors here, and would not be surprized if he had a black suit singleton, but of course I fear he is 2-2 in the blacks.

Black suit controls--- astute of you, I have none. Boy if I did I would force to game and invite slam.

Quote

RHO couldn't scrape up a club raise, so its doubtful that he has a fit. 

Count your clubs... you have 4. Overcaller generally has six (not always, of course), so how much of a fit can you expect WEST to have?

Quote

In turn, that suggests that partner could very well hold the dread 2=5=4=2 shape.  I'm an aggressive bidder, but I'm quite happy with my 3♦ bid.

Even opposite 2542 there is game possibiliites. Of course, partner will need a fair his share of hcp outside of hearts. But let me turn the table around on you. Do you expect partner to leap to 3♦ over the double (which promises spades, not necessarily diamonds) on a four card suit headed by at most the jack?

[ArcLight]

Here was openers hand:

S: x
H: A K 9 8 7 6
D: J 9 8 7 6
C: A

p - 1♥ - (2♣) - X
p -2♦ - p - 3♦
passed

result:
3♦ making 7


What I'm thinking is:

1) with that kind of ♦ support, responder needs to let opner know. Opener can't be looking at good Diamonds and wont get excited about a raise to 3. Responder has the A K Q x x of trumps, how can opener infer that? There was no 2-1 auction.

2) Opener is showing at least 5-4 shape. They bypassed NT and with 5-2-3-3 shape they would bid NT or maybe ♣.

3) a negative double shows 4+ spades. It doesn't imply great ♦ support
Responder could be 5-1-3-4 (yes they would make the negative Dbl with that club holding). Also, the HCP could be wsted in Spades KQxxx. The Neg DBL didn't guarantee a huge hand in support. 5-1-4-3

4) Opener has great shape, but needed a very specific set of card from responder to make the minor suit game. It would be very easy to visualize a spade, heart , and diamond loser in 5♦

5) What would a raise of 3♦ to 4♦ by opener mean?
"Bid 5 if you have good diamonds?" or could it be interpreted as "Bid 5 if you have a good hand - and pard might think KQxx in Spades would be valuable, along with the KJxx in Diamonds and x in hearts.

6) Was the opening hand worth a 3♦ bid rather than 2? Great shape, but weak suit. 3NT would have been ugly.

[inquiry]

ArcLight, on Nov 17 2006, 12:53 PM, said:

Here was openers hand:

S: x
H:  A K 9 8 7 6
D: J 9 8 7 6
C: A

p - 1♥ - (2♣) - X
p  -2♦  - p        - 3♦
passed

result:
3♦ making 7

Well, as I said, even slam is possible after 2♦, this hand sort of proves the point. Those who bid 3♦ only as responder will tell you that either opener should have rebid 3♦ over dbl, or bid again after partner raised. I thinking passing 3♦ with this hand was too big a position to take. The choice between 2♦ and 3♦ is just that, a choice. I would bid 2♦ expecting partner to take another bid (maybe false preference to hearts) on most hands where we still ahve some game chances.

Now, after my 3♣ cue-bid, this hand could very well jump to 4♦ (if playing that as RKCB) or 4♥ or 4♠ or 4NT if any of those are keycard asking. But even if not, I can't imagine slam will be missed.

[inquiry]

ArcLight, on Nov 17 2006, 12:53 PM, said:

4) Opener has great shape, but needed a very specific set of card from responder to make the minor suit game.  It would be very easy to visualize a spade, heart , and diamond loser in 5♦

I can't imagine a heart loser if partner supports diamonds, as he will not have 3♥s.

[P_Marlowe]

1) Neg. X, your strength is not high enough to make a 2nd move
without a pos. encouragemnt from partner

2) 3D

Your partner should make another move,
he is 6-5, has discovered a 5-4 fit, what
else does he need?
AK with 6 card suit oposite partners shortage
should ensure that the suit runs.

He should bid 5D at least.

It will be hard to discover the small slam, but 5D
he should bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I can understand Pass from opener plaing MP, but 5D is clear
playing IMP.

[HeartA]

1) negative dbl is good.
2) with such good diamonds and shape, I will cue-bid 3C. After pd's whatever bid, I then bid 4D.

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Nov 17 2006, 09:00 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Nov 17 2006, 12:53 PM, said:

Here was openers hand:

S: x
H:  A K 9 8 7 6
D: J 9 8 7 6
C: A

p - 1♥ - (2♣) - X
p  -2♦  - p        - 3♦
passed

result:
3♦ making 7

Well, as I said, even slam is possible after 2♦, this hand sort of proves the point. Those who bid 3♦ only as responder will tell you that either opener should have rebid 3♦ over dbl, or bid again after partner raised.

Here we agree...

I think that this hand is clearly worth another call after

(P) - 1♥ - (2♣) - X
(P) - 2♦ - (P) - 3♦

You have two first round controls, a stiff on the side, and a known 9 card suit.
The orginal 2♦ limited your hand. Given that you already showed a minimum hand, your now pretty close to a maximum and need to show this.

I'm not sure if I'd be able to find the slam. However, I'd definitely get to game.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I am not a big fan of Zar points, however, I do like the losing trick count. The opening bidder could not bid 2D 'with' the given hand. He has something like 3.5-4 losers depending on your losing trick count. Unless you play very strange methods, there are no heart losers. 'If' Zar 'bidders' do not at least jump to 3Ds(a large underrbid here) my opinion of Zar just fell even lower.

Opener has to jump and a cue bid is not unreasonable 'if' the partnership promises diamonds. Should the negative doubler move holding KQxx and out over a 2D rebid? Looks like five is cold.

hrothgar has a very good view on the value of the negative doubling hand. Misfit in hearts, zero controls in the black suits and he is making the correct value bid over a 2D bid.

The fact that opener has ignored the 'very strong playing value' of his hand to misbid all the way to 2Ds suggests that anything he later bids will also be suspect.

No point is proved or even suggested by opener misbidding this hand. If you do not jump with this opening bid opposite a negative double, you have a great deal to learn about bridge bidding.

I believe that the 'superfit' example suggested a 'ten'(10) card fit and most players learn that ten trumps missing the queen is often not a problem when they hold the Ace and King.

I would suggest fairly strongly to partner that a jump to 3Ds is a 'extreme' underbid holding a 65 hand with @ 3.5-4 losers.

Well 'if' the overcaller has six(most of the time, that 'is' my style) the lack of a raise should suggest that opener has 2+ clubs. Looking at the bidding examples in this and other forums, pass seems to often be a dirty word and five card suit overcalls at the two level are much too common. The five card suit is also often fairly threadbare.

It appears that opener did have a singleton club and 'still' that other pair did not manage to find a club raise of a 'presumed' six card suit. The bidding all around this table is not to be taken as serious bridge.

Regards,
Robert

[Cascade]

I am not at all sure about this strong invite to 5♦.

I play that having agreed a minor if we try for 3NT we can subside in 4minor. However this auction is different if you go through 3♣ over 2♦. Here partner will not know that your 3♣ has primary diamond support - it might simply be a general force.

I also usually play that a free raise to 4minor is forcing. So 4♦ over 2♦ is slammish with diamond support.

All of this only gives me one invitation - a raise to 3♦. I do have a good invitation but given that I have a void in partner's long suit I am happy to just invite for now. If partner makes any move I will be in game like a shot.

On the actual hand I would never pass 3♦ with opener's hand. Partner invited and I have significant extra distribution. It is also significant that partner invited with 3♦ and not 2NT suggesting that he does not have club wastage. In fact I would be making a move towards slam. Partner only needs three of ♠A ♦AKQ to make slam a big favourite and it might even make with only two of those cards.

I would cue-bid 4♣ and await developments.

[the hog]

I like an initial Sputnik X. I am surprised noone has commented on the pusillanimous bid of 2D by opener. Great shape an good controls would prompt me to bid 3D at least - 4 is not out of the question, but the poor Ds sway me to stick to 3.
Richard and Robert both have made good points in their posts and I agree with them. Ben, I think you overvalue the responding hand with its poor S and H void.

[neilkaz]

I make a negative double and then Q bid 3♣ after the 2♦ response since I now think our 2 hands have really good potential with real good chances for 5♦ and perhaps 6♦.

I do think opener's 2♦ rebid with that hand is an underbid and I would have jumped to 3♦ after which game and maybe the slam is easy to find.

I also think opener's pass of the final 3♦ bid is very very weak and it is hard to imagine a dummy that doesn't give superb play for 5♦.

[HeartA]

I agree that opener should carry on with 4D. But he is worried about the strength of diamonds and, if pd has 4 diamonds only, 5D would be tough with obvious trump lead. After all, 3D is more preemptive than invitational (opps may have C and even S fit), imo. With such a STRONG and FIVE-cards of diamonds, 3D over pd's 2D is a crime.

[Blofeld]

I don't see how 3♦ can be preemptive as that would leave you with no invitation in ♦s.

I also think that 3♦ is fine as responder - sure, you're at the heavy end for this and have great diamonds, but you have nothing outside, and in standard methods I'd expect all the other options to be game forcing, which seems a bit of a position on this hand.

I don't mind opener's 2♦ bid either - if partner passes you're unlikely to have game, and if partner bids then you can bid enthusiastically without overstating your hand as it was limited by the NF 2♦ bid. However, that plan fell apart when passing partner's 3♦ bid ...