[EricK]

HeartA, on Nov 18 2006, 02:41 AM, said:

mcphee, on Nov 17 2006, 06:15 PM, said:

If partner had opened the bidding 1H I am quite sure no one would pass.

True. But 1H opening shows 12-21 HCP, while 1H overcall promises 8-16 only.

But this is no longer true. The upper level for the strength of overcalls is now generally much higher than in the past, especially on two suited hands.

[mcphee]

It is my feeling (shared with many) the overcall shows a hand not suitable for a t/o dble and is not restricted to a limited range. The responder reacts to the overcall as though partner opened the bidding, they cue bid usually with a fit and limit values or better, you bid a new suit when you have something to offer.

Making a t/o dble simply because you are able to support both majors has huge downsides, like getting forced to bid your own suit at an uncomfortable level. Poor partner is also placed in a position where they become unsure if they should compete when they have the other minor. The hand that makes the t/o dble is also under the gun when the opps pre-empt.

So I will remain in the camp of an overcall being unrestricted in HCP and once in awhile will pay off for failing to reach some anti % game, or even the odd game that is sound. I will say that this does not take place that often.

For myself, I think the hand shown is 100% clear cut H overcall and the companion hand is an easy 1S response. EOK would be mortified to see anyone dble for t/o.

[Codo]

I believe in limited overcalls and I cannot remeber seeing a player plays this unlimited where I live. There are wondeful structures, so you can bid better and stay lower then withouts opponents bidding.

So in French Standard ( and German Std. too) the limit for an overcall is 18 points.

Now in this hand you have 16 HCPs versus 7 for a total of 23 even with some wasted values in Diamond but make 10 tricks in spade cause to the fit and the nice spot cards in Heart and the fact, that there are zero wasted values in the south hand.

So where is the problem in staying too low? if you had act with the north hand, despite having no real shortness, no fit, no controls and not much strength, you had just hoped to find the miracle spade fit and a where strong south. No good bet.

[Cascade]

Something is wrong ...

Either overcaller is too strong for 1♥ or overcaller's partner must find a response with this hand.

I don't mind doubling rather than bidding 1♥ with this hand since it gets both majors into the picture. If I double then I will bid hearts later if a spade fit has not been found. It might be a bit of a stretch on some auctions but that is the price I am willing to pay to make the more flexible takeout double.

[mike777]

cnszsun, on Nov 16 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♦    1♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Where can we do better? Thanks

Do we need to upgrade(overbid) 6-4 major suited hands with 5 losers?

[cherdano]

Cascade, on Nov 19 2006, 12:49 AM, said:

Something is wrong ...

Either overcaller is too strong for 1♥ or overcaller's partner must find a response with this hand.

No. There is also the option to pay the price of occasionally missing game when opponents don't balance with their 10-card fit, in exchange for getting better control of contested auctions.

With the given hand, I much prefer the auction (1D)-1H-(3D)-P-(P)-X over (1D)-X-(3D)-P-(P)-3H.

[Robert]

Hi Codo

I see that you live in Germany. In American high level bridge, the fairly strong overcall is almost standard. I switched to the style after I read what Edgar Kaplan had to say on why he bid that way.

On this side of the pond, we overcall to show our main suit and double later to show support for the unbid suits.

If you double 'without' support for the unbid suits, how does partner bid an unbid suit at a high level or with modest values. His 'shortage' in hearts might not be of great value after you 'pull' his club bid to your heart contract.

Play whatever style you are used to. Over here we tend to overcall with some pretty decent hands. My overcall range says 8-18(normally, however, with some exceptions!)

Regards,
Robert

[adhoc3]

I would try 1S with North's hand, it's white vs red. Yes, it's forcing, I could get back to H later.

[Codo]

Robert, on Nov 19 2006, 11:35 AM, said:

Hi Codo

I see that you live in Germany. In American high level bridge, the fairly strong overcall is almost standard. I switched to the style after I read what Edgar Kaplan had to say on why he bid that way.

On this side of the pond, we overcall to show our main suit and double later to show support for the unbid suits.

If you double 'without' support for the unbid suits, how does partner bid an unbid suit at a high level or with modest values. His 'shortage' in hearts might not be of great value after you 'pull' his club bid to your heart contract.

Play whatever style you are used to. Over here we tend to overcall with some pretty decent hands. My overcall range says 8-18(normally, however, with some exceptions!)

Regards,
Robert

HI Robert,

I don´t see the point. Here the overcall shows up to 18 HCPs, which is exactly the same then yours, so where is the difference?

And of course you have no problems with strong hands, because they do not occur.
And if you have them once in while, there is never a problem. you still have much space to find the right place.

[helene_t]

As for the difference between European and American overcall style:

Here in NL, beginners are tought a rather old-fashioned style in which overcalls are limited to 15 or maybe 16 HCP. My impression is that most intermediate players play something like that. I don't know about other European countries.

Personally, I'd rather overcall with 20 HCPs than double with a doubleton in an unbid major. I certainly don't consider this hand too strong for an overcall, it's just that double followed by some number of hearts gives a good description of the hand, I think. So I see no reason to risk 1♥ getting passed out.
I thought this was pretty much standard among advanced players at both sides of the pond, but it seems not to be.

So my question is: if a double followed by some number of hearts does not show this hand, what would it show? More defensive potential? Even more offensive potential?

[whereagles]

helene_t, on Nov 20 2006, 08:25 AM, said:

So my question is: if a double followed by some number of hearts does not show this hand, what would it show? More defensive potential? Even more offensive potential?

Depends on agreement. French style, it would show 18-21 hcp and 5+ card suit.