[Walddk]

Scoring: IMP

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Four intermediate players around the table on BBO the other day. It all started quietly when North opened 1♥ and East passed, but after that things went horribly wrong for NS.

Now, put yourself in the South seat. What is your response to partner's 1♥? It's too simple, is it not? Maybe it isn't after all. Think about it after I tell you that it might be a good idea to look further ahead.

(Let the beginners/intermediates have a go at this. They don't get too many problems in this forum as it is. If you are advanced or better, feel free to chip in, but if you do, you are kindly requested to use hidden text).

Roland

[hrothgar]

Spoiler

Swans almost always play best in their long suit. If there was ever a hand to suppress Spades and show clubs, its this one. I'm not sure what system we're playing, but I'll use whatever methods that I have to show a long club suit.

Playing 2/1, I'll bid a forcing NT, and follow up with 3♣
Playing Standard or Acol I'll bid 2♣ and rebid 3♣ over anything but 2♠

(In a perfect world, partner put a gun to my head and forced me to play intermediate jump shifts, so I can bid 3C and get this off my hands with one bid)

[jocdelevat]

I pass and wait for west to reopen then jump in 3c or 4c looks like a misfit no good for nt contract. I suppose pard has diamonds and hearts if I bid 1s or 2c after 2d im stuck pard will have no transportation to play an nt contract.
I do not play strong jump shift so I can bid 3c too but will end in a nt contract which has no play.

[jillybean]

If I show my 4♠ I will never be able to convince my partner that I have 7♣ so I must start with 2♣.
If partner responds 2♥ I can show my ♠ now. I dont think this is a reverse, having already overbid my hand if its a reverse I am in even deeper trouble.

If my partner bids 2nt I will bid 3♣ and let my partner decide if 3nt will play.

jb

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Nov 9 2006, 08:51 PM, said:

If I show my 4♠ I will never be able to convince my partner that I have 7♣ so I must start with 2♣.
If partner responds 2♥ I can show my ♠ now. I dont think this is a reverse, having already overbid my hand if its a reverse I am in even deeper trouble.

2♠ would show an opening hand (also playing standard or Acol) after

1♥ - 2♣
2♥ - 2♠

With exactly 4 spades, a longer minor and less than opening values, one must start with 1♠ over 1♥. This is the issue here, isn't it? But .....

Roland

[mikeh]

This is an excellent thread, Roland. I will not post my thoughts, even hidden, until we see more B-I posters, but as a hint:

Spoiler

this hand requires that we think strategically: anyone who appreciates the point of this hand is well on the way to becoming a bridge player as opposed to someone who plays bridge.

[HeartA]

jillybean2, on Nov 9 2006, 01:51 PM, said:

If partner responds 2♥ I can show my ♠ now. I dont think this is a reverse, having already overbid my hand if its a reverse I am in even deeper trouble.

Yes, it IS a reverse, showing longer clubs than spades. If you want to show 7 good clubs with such strength, you will NEVER be able to show 4-card spades even if pd rebids spades and you support it. Strategically (or statistically), it may be the right thing to abandon spades and show your clubs, by responding 1NT and bid 3C, or 3C directly (kind of invitational like in the other thread).

[FrancesHinden]

The only point I would add is that the system you are playing does matter: is a 1NT response forcing, 'semi-forcing' or passed on any 12-15 balanced hand?

[mike777]

I think you need to show and bid this hand that promises a weak but long club suit in what ever style you play. Ignore spades.

For most of us that means starting with a forcing/semiforcing nt.

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 9 2006, 10:14 PM, said:

The only point I would add is that the system you are playing does matter: is a 1NT response forcing, 'semi-forcing' or passed on any 12-15 balanced hand?

I don't disagree, Frances, but how likely is it that opener has a balanced hand in the 12-14 range when you are 4117? I am not saying that 1NT is the correct bid (I won't reveal anything at this point), but if it is the bid, I would not be afraid of responding 1NT even if it's passable.

Opener is indeed entitled to pass if you play Sayc, Acol or French Standard, whereas 1NT, in theory at least, is forcing if you play 2/1.

Roland

[ArcLight]

Playing 2/1

1♥ - 1NT
X - 3♣

A delayed jump of a new suit is mildly invitational, good 6/7 cards suit (like a weak 2 bid). Not as good as a direct jump on the first round.

This hand is not good enough for an Invitational Jump Shift

If pard bids 2♠, showing a big 4=5 then we may be able to help out, though there is a lot to ruff in Diamonds and Hearts. Probably game is the lmit of this hand even opposite a Reverse.

If pard bid 2♣ then Hmmm. 5 C is still a long way off.


The opps may balance with Spades at some point, boy will they be surprised at the distribution

[EricK]

ArcLight, on Nov 9 2006, 09:36 PM, said:

Playing 2/1

1♥ - 1NT
X - 3♣

A delayed jump of a new suit is mildly invitational, good 6/7 cards suit (like a weak 2 bid). Not as good as a direct jump on the first round.

This would not be a delayed jump though.

[HeartA]

EricK, on Nov 9 2006, 05:06 PM, said:

This would not be a delayed jump though.

That is what I was going to say.

[jillybean]

I understand 1♥:2♣ 2♥:2♠ IS a reverse, I'm still not clear that it shows extra values....I'm going back to read the thread on reverses again



http://forums.bridge...=ST&f=5&t=11365


Ok yes it is a reverse and it does show extra values maybe, I am completely lost on these fine points

This post has been edited by jillybean2: 2006-November-10, 08:51

[mike777]

jillybean2, on Nov 9 2006, 07:07 PM, said:

I understand 1♥:2♣  2♥:2♠  IS a reverse, I'm still not clear that it shows extra values....I'm going back to read the thread on reverses again 



http://forums.bridge...=ST&f=5&t=11365

Ya this can be quite confusing. Great issue. Along the same lines look at what "extra's" mean. This is also a confusing issue.

Even after a few years of coming back to bridge ...the range of what "extra's" mean to many players who I regard as fine bidders can be confusing.

[awm]

How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? My impression remains that a reverse is a bid beyond the cheapest available call in your first-bid suit. Since after 1♥-2♣-2♥, the cheapest possible call in responder's first bid suit is 3♣, and 2♠ is a lower call, it's not a reverse.

Of course, whether 2♠ is a reverse and whether it shows extras/is forcing are totally different questions. It's fairly standard that 2♠ here is forcing to game.

[HeartA]

jillybean2, on Nov 9 2006, 07:07 PM, said:

I understand 1♥:2♣ 2♥:2♠ IS a reverse, I'm still not clear that it shows extra values....I'm going back to read the thread on reverses again



http://forums.bridge...=ST&f=5&t=11365


Ok yes it is a reverse and it does show extra values

A reverse from responder shows at least opening strength and game forcing.

[cherdano]

awm, on Nov 10 2006, 02:27 AM, said:

How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? My impression remains that a reverse is a bid beyond the cheapest available call in your first-bid suit. Since after 1♥-2♣-2♥, the cheapest possible call in responder's first bid suit is 3♣, and 2♠ is a lower call, it's not a reverse.

Of course, whether 2♠ is a reverse and whether it shows extras/is forcing are totally different questions. It's fairly standard that 2♠ here is forcing to game.

Well, since all the world calls this a reverse, I suppose it is a reverse - who claimed English is logical?

However, I think it makes sense to say that a reverse is any sequence of two suit bids such that you end up at a higher level than if you had bid the same suits in the cheapest possible way. I.e. you reversed the order, compared to the cheapest possible way to bid them. Since 2♣-then-2♠ forces to a higher level than 1♠-2♣, the first is a reverse.

[HeartA]

awm, on Nov 9 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse?

Because you responded 2♣ at your first turn and skipped 1♠. 2♠ confirmed that you had the strength to bid ♠ later. A simple 2♣ and then 3♣ (per agreement between partnership) shows a weaker hand of clubs suits only.

[the hog]

awm, on Nov 10 2006, 10:27 AM, said:

How can the lowest possible call in a forcing auction be a reverse? My impression remains that a reverse is a bid beyond the cheapest available call in your first-bid suit. Since after 1♥-2♣-2♥, the cheapest possible call in responder's first bid suit is 3♣, and 2♠ is a lower call, it's not a reverse.

Of course, whether 2♠ is a reverse and whether it shows extras/is forcing are totally different questions. It's fairly standard that 2♠ here is forcing to game.

This IS a reverse. (Reverse by responder). It SHOWS extra values and is a game force.