[jillybean]

Heres a hand I was playing with a new partner, I didn’t get to play but I love the bidding and final contract
My p said he thought 4nt was quantitative, I thought it was RKC ♠
What is it?

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1NT   Pass  2♥
 Pass  2♠    Pass  4NT
 Pass  6♠    Pass  7NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


tyia
jb

[HeartA]

Well, how do you know you are not missing an Ace?

[inquiry]

I believe it was Humpty Dumpty or someone in alice in wonderland that said, "When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean .... nothing more, nothing less."

The same can often apply to a bridge bid, like this 4NT. It can be quantitative (that is how I play it), it can be RKCB. The place where the line is usaully drawn is either...

1) Did you have texas or some other transfer to 4S at the four level available.

If the answer to 1 is yes, then this 4NT has to be quantitative

2) Did you have some other way to force and show great spades below the level of 4S (like a self splinter)

If 2 is true, then again, 4NT is quantative.

If the answer to both 1 and 2 are no, then I am afraid you just have to have a specific agreement with your partner on what 4NT bid means.

So, "When I use a BID, it means what I want it to mean .....nothing more, nothing less" should be our new quote for the day.

[jillybean]

HeartA, on Nov 10 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

Well, how do you know you are not missing an Ace?

I dont know, just a lucky guess but if partner is willing to go to 6 there is not much missing.

[HeartA]

jillybean2, on Nov 10 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

HeartA, on Nov 10 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

Well, how do you know you are not missing an Ace?

I dont know, just a lucky guess.

Let's see. Assuming 1NT is 15-17, you have 18, the maximum of combination is 35. It is very possible you missed an ace.

[EricK]

HeartA, on Nov 10 2006, 07:53 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Nov 10 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

HeartA, on Nov 10 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

Well, how do you know you are not missing an Ace?

I dont know, just a lucky guess.

Let's see. Assuming 1NT is 15-17, you have 18, the maximum of combination is 35. It is very possible you missed an ace.

Sometimes 7NT makes even if you are missing an Ace!

[mikeh]

I agree with Ben, jb. Use texas (or south african texas, which seems more popular in Europe...you have to give up G****r) and then this is a clear quantitative 4N.

In fact, if you don't play texas, some would advocate that G****r has a role to play here: transfer and then 4♣ as ace-asking: abandoning the splinter usage. This allows 4N to be quantitative as well.

The simple answer is to incorporate texas: the main argument against not using texas seems to be that there are hands on which responder may profitably be declarer, but in my opinion, those hands are infrequent in theory and even less frequent in practice.

As for HeartA's concern that you may be missing an Ace, it may be true, but opener should not hold soft values, even if on a 16 count, to jump to 6♠. It is tough to construct a jumping hand that lacks 3 aces. Tough is not impossible, but it sure shifts the odds in favour of bidding grand.

[jillybean]

I'd be happy to give up G***** ! I'll take note and see if I can introduce this into any of my (not yet regular) partnerships.
This was only the 2nd time I have played with this partner so thought transfer and RKC would be safest method - wrong again

[P_Marlowe]

HeartA, on Nov 10 2006, 02:53 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Nov 10 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

HeartA, on Nov 10 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

Well, how do you know you are not missing an Ace?

I dont know, just a lucky guess.

Let's see. Assuming 1NT is 15-17, you have 18, the maximum of combination is 35. It is very possible you missed an ace.

Possible yes, but not likely.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Wackojack]

Hi Jilly

You can ensure that spades are the agreed suit before launching into RKC. It depends on how you play 1nt-2♥-2♠-3♠ and 1nt-3♠. I like to play the first sequence as the 6 card game force and the 2nd as the invite. Either way you agree spades. Either
1nt 2♥
2♠ 3♠
4♠
or
1nt 3♠
4♠

After this you can RKC say:
4nt-5♠
5nt- ?
now if your method is to show the number of kings 6♦ there is some uncertainty about 7♠. If you method is to bid your lowest ranking king 6♦ you are better placed because you know that you can discard your club on a winning diamond. 7♠ is still not certain because partner could have Qxx, Axx, AKxx, Qxx. But this is worst case and still on a finesse.

[HeartA]

Wackojack, on Nov 11 2006, 07:21 AM, said:

Either
1nt 2♥
2♠ 3♠
4♠
or
1nt 3♠
4♠

After this you can RKC say:
4nt-5♠
5nt- ?
now if your method is to show the number of kings 6♦ there is some uncertainty about 7♠.  If you method is to bid your lowest ranking king 6♦ you are better placed because you know that you can discard your club on a winning diamond.  7♠ is still not certain because partner could have Qxx, Axx, AKxx, Qxx.  But this is worst case and still on a finesse.

The first sequence will never lead to RKC. You invited game first and how can you launch RKC after pd just accepted your intivation? This is an impossible sequence. If you play 3M as game forcing (not many players play that way anymore), the second sequence is reasonable.

As Ben wrote, Texas transfer and followed with 4NT is RKC, as Texas means 6+ (major) suit.

[Wackojack]

HeartA, on Nov 11 2006, 02:36 PM, said:

The first sequence will never lead to RKC.  You invited game first and how can you launch RKC after pd just accepted your intivation?  This is an impossible sequence.  If you play 3M as game forcing (not many players play that way anymore), the second sequence is reasonable.

As Ben wrote, Texas transfer and followed with 4NT is RKC, as Texas means 6+ (major) suit.

Please read my post you are replying to. I was trying to convey that if you don't play Texas as many do not, you can still get a game force agreeing spades so that 4nt is then definitely RKC. The method I like and popular in my part of the world is to make 1nt-3♠ as invitational and 1nt-2♥-2♠-3♠ as game force (both with 6 cards). If you play this the other way round as in Bridgebase basic then thats fine also.

[neilkaz]

Rather standard is that Jacoby followed by 4NT is quant and may also have only 5 cards in the major which is why your PD with 17 support points and 3♠ bid 6♠.

Along with that if you play Texas, then Texas followed by 4NT is RKCB with at least 6 cards in the major. Now Jacoby followed by a jump to game shows 6+ trumps and is a mild slam invite.

Most likely a better system for finding slams after a 1 NT opening could be played since fitting cards matter quite alot and The jumps to RKCB commit one to the 5 level and take up lots of room and the jumps to game also take up much room and sometimes a slam based on a nice side suit fit can be missed or opener continues on after a mild slam invite and gets set , even at the 5 level.

.. neilkaz ..

[neilkaz]

Also some players respond to 4NT quant by showing aces if they are going to accept slam. This is a safeguard against being off two aces, in case responder pushed a bit with a 5 or even 6 card running suit and a HCP or two less than needed to guarantee having 33 if opener accepts. Also this might just be all responder needs at MPs to bid 6NT rather than 6M.

.. neilkaz ..