[mike777]

Walddk, on Oct 9 2006, 02:18 PM, said:

Time to show the 2 hands I suppose:

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ103 ♥ K104 ♦ 86 ♣ 753 ♠ A85 ♥ AQJ863 ♦ AQ94 ♣

I don't think many would reach top spot: 7♠ (by the way, 7♥ was also on because the diamond finesse worked). However, I wasn't too impressed with the two auctions I saw:

1♥ - 2♥
4♥ - pass

**

1♥ - 1♠
3♥ - 4♥
4♠ - 5♥
pass

In my view, the worst bid of them all was opener's 3♥ rebid at Table 2. Besides, 4♠ doesn't exist after you have made a non-forcing 3♥ rebid. How on earth did she expect partner to figure out why and how she had misbid the hand?

Roland

Well with that hand partner would have to bid 4nt(spade cue) over my 4c cuebid.

1h=1s
3d=3h
4c=4nt(spade cuebid)

Should at least reach 6.
?

[FrancesHinden]

mikeh, on Oct 9 2006, 08:02 PM, said:

After being in complete agreement with Frances through 3♠, I now find myself in slight disagreement. I do not think that partner's 3♥ preference denied 5♠. With KJxxx Kx xxx Jxx, for example, 3♥ is 100% clear over 3♦.

OK, that´s a 3H bid.
But I would certainly bid 3S rather than 3H on KJxxx xx in the majors.

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on Oct 9 2006, 08:18 PM, said:

Time to show the 2 hands I suppose:

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ103 ♥ K104 ♦ 86 ♣ 753 ♠ A85 ♥ AQJ863 ♦ AQ94 ♣

I can obviously invent a successful auction to 7S seeing both hands, although I do not think it entirely trivial at the table.

But after our start to the auction 1H - 1S - 3D - 3H - 3S North has the values for slam, not a non-forcing 4H, 4S or 5S bid. What does she think a game forcing 3541 looks like?

Axx
AQxxx
AKxx
x

is not really enouhg for a 3D bid (although close) and 6 of either major is trivial.

[Walddk]

I don't know the auction or results at the other two tables, but I think it's poor judgement, probably in combination with an inadequate system, to play this laydown grand slam in game.

They had all the room in the world (no interference). And mind you, we are not talking about random intermediates, but top class international players from a country that won the bronze medal at the European Championships a few months ago.

I am not claiming that the cold 7♠ is easy to bid, but at this level it should be trivial to get to 6.

Roland

[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 9 2006, 10:46 PM, said:

I can obviously invent a successful auction to 7S seeing both hands, although I do not think it entirely trivial at the table. 

But after our start to the auction 1H - 1S - 3D - 3H - 3S North has the values for slam, not a non-forcing 4H, 4S or 5S bid.  What does she think a game forcing 3541 looks like?

Axx
AQxxx
AKxx
x

is not really enouhg for a 3D bid (although close) and 6 of either major is trivial.

Yeah, the point of bidding 3D and then bidding out the shape was to put partner in a position to make the slam decision. Bidding on over 4H would be a clear insult to partner, he could have Qxxx Kxx Jx KQxxx. Similar over 4S. Only over 5S it is close.

Actually I am not sure what 5S should show. The actual hand is of course a slam force, and Phil's hand is also a too good I think. I can only make sense of it if it is asking for good trumps (T9xxx Kx Kxx Axx). I would bid 6H over 5S.

Anyway, let's agree that if we miss slam after starting with 3D, we can blame partner (i.e. Roland)

[david_c]

Walddk, on Oct 9 2006, 07:24 PM, said:

david_c, on Oct 9 2006, 08:19 PM, said:

It seems very important to know what 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 4♥ means.

I assume that 4♥ over 3♦ would show a desire to let opener declare 4♥ if she has roughly 19-21 with 5 hearts and 4 diamonds. But how would I know? I am not eligible to play in the Lady Milne

I don't believe in "fast arrival". With a minimum hand that wanted to play in hearts I would wait with 3♥ and then correct partner's next bid to 4♥. For me a jump to game tends to show extras. Terribly old-fashioned perhaps, but I don't find it very easy to show these extras in any other way. (The natural jump to game denies the ability to make a cue-bid.)

Two copies of me would bid this hand

1♥[1] - 1NT[2] - 3♦[3] - 4♥[4] - 7♠[5]

[1]5+ hearts
[2]5+ spades
[3]This feels a bit uncomfortable at this point, but I don't have system to show 3-card support and a void.
[4]Picture bid: non-minimum (so must be a hand too good to respond 2♥) with values concentrated in the majors, no club control, shouldn't have an honour in diamonds.
[5]Partner must have at least ♠KQxxx ♥Kxx for his bidding. I don't have the methods to ask for the ♠J (or a sixth spade), but even without it the grand slam is decent (needs trumps to split and hearts not 4-0).

I haven't made this up, honestly! The first four bids are automatic and I can't see any way to stop below 7♠ after that start.

[mike777]

ok why cannot partner have other good, noncuebid hands for your 4h picture bid?
I doubt picture bids are this specific but then I do not play them.

[david_c]

mike777, on Oct 10 2006, 12:27 AM, said:

ok why cannot partner have other good, noncuebid hands for your 4h picture bid?

Well, OK, I suppose ♠KJTxx ♥Kxx ♦xx ♣QJx is good enough, so I should ask for the ♠Q before bidding a grand slam if the methods are available to do that. That's about the worst hand partner can have though: there aren't very many points missing in the majors and partner is promising most of them. It would be very pessimistic to settle for 6♥/6♠. You've got to at least invite a grand, and on the actual hand responder will surely accept with such good trumps.

[kenrexford]

This is such a screwed up post by now, and I am extremely confused. Every permutation of auctions and theories imaginable seem to have reared up here.

So, I'll add only two more. LOL

First, this may be why one should raise with support. A simple constructive 1♥-P-2♥ allows Opener to start obvious cuebidding (not obvious as to purpose) with a 2♠ call, in my personal methods (spade value). In my preferred approach, Responder now bids 3♠, accepting the game try and suggesting spades as an alternative strain. This also, by my personal definitions, shows three covers inside the two suits (or more). 4♣ asks for more info. But, the 3♠ call allows Opener to visualize a very strong possibility of slam.

I'm sure that many folks use personal preferences themselves that would make a 1♥-P-2♥ auction work.

That being said, I understand the problem of bidding 2♥. A spade focus might be very important, and the playing strength is tweener and spade-fit-dependent.

After 1♠, I still maintain adherence to the 2♦ school here, as I feel that, especially at IMP's, courtesy corrections and the like allow auctions on these hands that make more sense if done slowly. I also agree that 2♠ after a courtesy correction shows near-reverse values. With less, I'd just raise spades directly and get that off my chest.

After 2♦, I agree that 3♥ makes sense. Now, hearts are agreed. Period. 3♠ is a cue. Period. This is a flawed bid, however, because the fit-dependent spade issue has far from been resolved (and is actually more stressed now). But, you boxed yourself in by not raising immediately.

The discussion on this alternative could go on and on. A moral can easily be gleaned:

Raise with support, if you can. The rest should work itself out if you have good techniques. If not, get good techniques -- a raise with support should not cause a train wreck.

[jikl]

Dare I mention FSJ?

Sean

[Winstonm]

I came in to this post very late but will try to catch up.

1H-1S (I agree with 1S)
3D is my bid - 3H
3S is my bid

After 3S, responder should get real excited.

1H-1S
3D-3H
3S-4N
5N*-6C** *odd and void. **extras?
6H-7S.

[FrancesHinden]

I gave the hand opposite to my better half last night, after the start to the auction 1H -1S - 3D - 3H - 3S
and he bid 5S, so I may have been a little hard on Roland.

He said it should specifically be asking for a club control, as opener could have something like Ax AQJxx AKQx xx, so with two of you saying the same thing I'm convinced!

(With the hand opposite, he was very happy to play in spades on a possible 5-2 fit, suggesting a hand such as Ax Axxxx AKQx Ax opposite)

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 10 2006, 09:18 AM, said:

I gave the hand opposite to my better half last night, after the start to the auction 1H -1S - 3D - 3H - 3S
and he bid 5S, so I may have been a little hard on Roland.

No problem. Now you know what 5♠ means next (= first) time we play together. I am sure this sequence comes up frequently

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Oct 10 2006, 01:37 AM, said:

First, this may be why one should raise with support. A simple constructive 1♥-P-2♥ allows Opener to start obvious cuebidding (not obvious as to purpose) with a 2♠ call, in my personal methods (spade value).

Perhaps you aren't aware that a 1H opening could be on

Axxx
AQxx
AQx
xx

or

Axxx
Axxx
Axxx
x

opposite the second of which 2H will end the auction with 4S an OK spot

[kenrexford]

Oh Boy! The auction featured a four-card-major opening! That adds yet more depth to the permutations of variables. At least no canape, I assume???