[kgr]

2NT-3H
3S-4NT
(3H: transfer.)
1. Is 4NT ace asking or quantitative?
====
2NT-3H
3S-4NT
5C-
2. How do you continue with 5-card S and 10 points:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Jxx
- If you rebid S then you promise 6-card?
- Is 5NT King asking or anything else?
====
With pickup partner bidding continues:
2NT-3H
3S-4NT
5C-5NT
6H
If you bid 6S now do you promise 6-card or is it choice between 6S and 6NT?
====

[Flame]

You are asking 2 different questions, the first what is 4NT and the answer is quentative, the second is what my pickup partner is doing and here my guess is he is answering for aces and kings.

[kgr]

...And if 4NT is quantitative, how do you bid/ask aces with:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Kxx

[1eyedjack]

Total values seem to indicate that (1) you have enough for small slam, but not enough for grand slam and (2) you will not be missing 2 key cards, so is there any point in asking about them?

You might have had enough for 7 if partner had refused the transfer, but he didn't.

So I would bid 5NT over 3S, "pick a slam". It is just possible that you are missing the Spade King and an Ace, but then it is possible that he does not need the Spade suit for 12 tricks or, if he does, there is a finesse in Spades.

Back to the general principles in the OP, it is common to give a blackwood response to a quantitative 4NT if you are accepting the slam try, "just in case" there are two missing aces, but pass with a minimum.

[kenrexford]

Assuming 19+ to 21 range for the 2NT opening, a few things should be "known."

(1) Partner does not have KQx(x) of spades, with three outside Aces -- he would super-accept. (He surely does not have the heart King also.)
(2) Partner could be missing the A-K of hearts
(3) Partner could have a five-card minor

I cannot solve (2), so I also bid 5NT, to cater to (3) and be practical.

I realize that a minor grand is possible. I just cannot find that either.

[Free]

I'm used to play following:
3-level transfer followed by 4NT = quant
4-level transfer followed by 4NT (or 4♠ when transfer ♥) = kickback RKC

About the following hand:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Kxx
Do you really think ace asking is interesting? You don't know if you have a ♥ cue, and you can hardly have 2 aces out, so what's the point of ace asking? Going to 6NT with ♥AK outside is still possible if partner misses 1 ace.

[Flame]

kgr, on Oct 8 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

...And if 4NT is quantitative, how do you bid/ask aces with:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Kxx

How can you ask for aces, you dont have a known fit, what will you bid if you find enough aces ? 6S or 6NT ?

[awm]

1. 4NT is quantitative. Ace-asking bids are greatly overrated, especially when you haven't bothered to cuebid. To set spades and ask for aces start with 4♥; however this isn't the right sequence with a five-card suit.

2. I would rebid 3NT. 10+20 or 21 isn't generally enough for slam, especially if we don't have a spade fit. If partner bids on over 3NT (any followup should agree spades and bidding something other than pass or 4♠ would be a cue), I'll look for slam.

3. Hard to say what partner's thinking. Most likely partner interpreted the 4NT bid as keycard and is responding to that. Bidding 6♠ here really shouldn't show six spades, since you didn't texas, but no guarantee partner understands this. Opposite a good partner I might even interpret 5♣ as an offer to play in clubs (i.e. accept of the slam try with a 5-card club suit) but I'm not about to risk a 3-3 fit opposite a pickup.

[pclayton]

kgr, on Oct 8 2006, 02:28 AM, said:

...And if 4NT is quantitative, how do you bid/ask aces with:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Kxx

Either 4♣ or 5♣ (by agreement).

[pclayton]

kgr, on Oct 8 2006, 02:18 AM, said:

====
2NT-3H
3S-4NT
5C-
2. How do you continue with 5-card S and 10 points:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Jxx
- If you rebid S then you promise 6-card?
- Is 5NT King asking or anything else?

With an intelligent partner, 5♣ is a suggestion to play, with probably 5. Its 100% forcing and denies 3♠. I think it creates a force to 5N, but not necessarily 6.

With some 2-2-3-6, pard bids 6♣ over 4N.

I would raise to 6♣ with my ruffing value. Kx, AKx, Axx, AQxxx is a good example. I'm not overly concerned if its MPs; with a maximum and 5 clubs, pard should be placing the contract in 6N anyway.

[ArcLight]

>So I would bid 5NT over 3S, "pick a slam".

I would interpret 5NT as the Grand Slam Force asking about trump quality, not unreasonably opposite a 2NT opener.
Usually Pick a slam is used when there are 2 suits shown and supported.
With a pick up pard I think 5NT may lea dto confusion.


>Back to the general principles in the OP, it is common to give a blackwood response to a quantitative 4NT if you are accepting the slam try, "just in case" there are two missing aces, but pass with a minimum.

Is that really the case? Or is it that most people misunderstand 4NT and assume its Blackwood.

A common response is looking for another suit for slam. Hence 5 Clubs asking about a Club Slam. Afterall, a 2NT opener may have a powerful undisclosed suit.
In any case this is another chance to go wrong with a pick up pard. I would be careful making assumptions about "common" responses.
I've seen some unfortunate results.

[kenrexford]

I don't understand why anyone would still use Grand Slam Force, especially with RKCB and Exclusion RKCB available.

I understand it even less when the partner of the GSF bidder has half the deck. How can the partner of the 2NT Opener have so much info that all we need is trump quality answered?

It boggles the mind how 5NT as "pick a slam" is less useful and less obvious. By "pick a slam," those of us who advocate its use here mean 5NT as quantitative, forcing 6NT or six of a suit. Opener is invited to introduce a long minor at the six level, to preference the major, or to bid 6NT.

[Winstonm]

kgr, on Oct 8 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

...And if 4NT is quantitative, how do you bid/ask aces with:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Kxx

I don't know if it is standard, but I use 4C in this sequece as Key Card Gerber, leaving 4N as quantitative - But you really shouldn't be asking for aces here anyway without a heart control...partner could just hold: KQJ, QJxx, AJx, AQJx

[mike777]

2nt=3h
3s=4s=mild slam try, no second suit.

2nt=4h
4s=p=to play.

2nt=3h
3s=4c=second suit

2nt=3h
3s=4nt=quant.

2nt=4h
4s=4nt=rkc for s

2nt=4d
4h=4s=rkc for h.

[kenrexford]

For whatever it is worth, I have wondered about this auction. The traditional approach is for Jacoby...4NT to be quantitative and Texas...4NT RKCB. This seems to make sense, if one looks at the logic of the initial call, namely that only Texas guarantees a six-card suit, and hence a fit.

But, what if one looks at this from the standpoint of two bids together? If one does that, and if you assume nothing funny/helpful from partner (like a super-acceptance), then there is no difference in the end position, right?

So, I suppose the question should be which hand type most benefits from a super-acceptance. THAT is the hand type that should, ideally, initiate auctions with the Jacoby Transfer.

The classic Jacoby-then-4NT hand (quantitative) is usually quite specific -- 5332 with a specific tweener HCP range. The classic Texas-then-4NT is more prone to unbalance. Sure, 6322 might be possible, but 6331? 6421?

It seems to me that perhaps the better approach, after all, might be to have Texas-then-4NT "erase" the "I have six of this major" message and convert the auction to Quantitative, whereas the Jacoby-then-4NT is best the option with a sixth major card, unhappy that no super-accept occurred.

This seems more important/persuasive after a 2NT opening, IMO.

The natural objection is that the super-acceptance is extremely valuable and should be maximized as to frequency. The more often we have super-acceptances in slam probes, the better. Thus, we use the Jacoby-then-4NT option with the shorter major holding, in part to maximize the likelihood of Opener holding a super-acceptance hand.

So, I suppose I stay with the classic approach. But, just some thoughts, perhaps, that others might explore...

[mike777]

I would say if this is in your top 30 bridge issues you are winning alot.

[1eyedjack]

Winstonm, on Oct 11 2006, 12:30 AM, said:

kgr, on Oct 8 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

...And if 4NT is quantitative, how do you bid/ask aces with:
Axxxx
xx
KQx
Kxx

I don't know if it is standard, but I use 4C in this sequece as Key Card Gerber, leaving 4N as quantitative - But you really shouldn't be asking for aces here anyway without a heart control...partner could just hold: KQJ, QJxx, AJx, AQJx

While I agree that it is not sensible to ask for Aces on the hand, my reason is not because of a fear of two cashing Heart tricks, but more because of a lack of fear of two cashing tricks (Hearts or otherwise). You really have to scratch around to construct a hand where this applies. Anyway, perhaps if there is nothing that particularly indicates a Heart lead then you should be in slam on these cards? Certainly it makes on a non-heart lead.