[paulg]

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
....................Pass
Pass 1♣ 2♣! Dble
2♠ Pass Pass ?

(2♣=majors)

---

A hand from Jimmy Cayne's table yesterday where Justin started a discusion on what this hand should do now?

Is partner's pass forcing? If not, what would he do with a hand that has a strong takeout double of spades?

This assumes that partner's double would be penalty, but I think the problem is the same whether you play takeout or penalty doubles in this auction.

At the table this hand passed which looks wrong to me. Perhaps the initial double is at fault?

paul

[kenrexford]

I would have opened this hand 1♣, which completely changes the auction. Granted, 4333 pattern is bad. But, as a 14+ is opened 1NT in 1st seat, 11-14 is the range for 1C...1NT, and I have a primed-out 11.

That being said, I'm not sure what the double by a passed hand of a Michaels Cue (it was Michaels, right?) of a minor opening shows for these folks. As I play, I cannot have the actual hand (primed defensive 11-count), because I'd have opened. Does the double show (a.) 10-11 balanced but not right for an opening, (b.) a constructive club raise, or (c.) either? I'd imagine that a 2♥ cue over 2♣ should cover the constructive raise -- defensive values hand, and perhaps 2♠ is an "unusual versus unusual diamond-indicating fit-jump without the jump."

This analysis leads me to assume that the double shows the balanced 10-11 count, unsuitable for an opening. If this shows a precise hand type, then the next question is easier -- does this force action, or can we defend an undoubled contract at the two level? I suppose this problem is why I like to open this hand 1♣ initially. With this hand, I have a problem, because I have my own 2 1/2 quick tricks. Take that away, and I am less concerned about passing a third-seat opening and more concerned about foring a 20-point 3♣ contract on a seven-card fit.

In the end, I also pass 2♠, if forced to not open 1♣. I cannot accept that the hand that is very tightly de3fined at 2♣-X must force this decision -- it seems better for Opener to bid 3♣ or double with the "right" hand for either, or to accept a few +50 scores instead of +100. I'm not fond of -300 or -500.

[Winstonm]

This is a fairly common situation which needs to be resolved between partners. The resolution we came up with is this:

The immediate double of the 2C bid is card-showing and is not penalty oriented.
Hence, opener knows over 2S that his partner holds some values appropriate to play 2N or the 3-level and could bid 2N himself over 2S as a non-forward going bid.

In this instance where opener passes 2S, the indication is he does not hold a particularly unbalanced minor hand nor does he hold a good hand with 4 spades and does not hold a clear-cut 2N or 3N bid.

Responder, having described a non-penalty hand, is now free to reopen with a do something intelligent double.

If instead, responder held a penalty double hand, he would pass first and then double - if he had a one-suited penalty, our thinking is that he would need a virtual game force hand to pass, so in that case he reopens with a double for penalty if the opps land in his suit, otherwise bids the suit he has stopped to indicate a game forcing pass with the bid suit stopped.

[pclayton]

This relates to the other thread where we talked about whether or not or not a penalty double of 1N creates a subsequent force on opener. Here, its a question of whether or not opener can make a FP on the doubler.

Paul, I think Jimmy's double was alerted as 'values' and not necessarily penalty of a major. I don't think its the mainstream way to play the double. I think most would say the double means you can penalize one of the majors but have the values to create a force. In other words, an initial double can't be QJ-6th of spades and out.

I would propose this:

A double in either chair is pure penalty, showing a real trump stack; not some new-age cooperative double with a balanced 18. A pass is forcing but only if the doubler is an unpassed hand. If the doubler doesn't have a sensible call, 2N is 'scrambling'. 3N is to play and 3 of one of their suits shows a stop.

[Winstonm]

I think I heard this idea originally from FrancesHinden and soon adopted it: the immediate double is card-showing and not penalty.

Thinking about it, the more difficult hand to bid is the one with values but no clear direction. With a pure penalty double, it should be extremely safe to pass as 4th seat is unlikely to leave in 2C and even then partner still has a bid. Therefore, with cards and no clear-cut action, double now to show your values. This double also brings partner back into the picture when he can double 4th seat's bid with less than a mountain, knowing he is facing a partner with some values.

I think Phil is right in that this is backwards from what is considered "standard", but I would think in time this will change.

[flytoox]

I think the original dbl created a forcing auction. As for what should I do know, I think dbl is not unreasonable. Another choice is 2N. I prefer dbl, it should win us +200.

[P_Marlowe]

The dbl of the Michales bid did
create a forcing pass seq., it
would be the case,if South was
not an passed hand.

Since South passed as dealer,
things are not so clear, but for the
sake of simplicity, I would treat the
pass as forcing.
Unless you regular open crap in 3rd seat.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[barmar]

Whether a passed hand can create a forcing auction probably depends on how light your third-seat openers can be, as well as how sound your first-seat openers are. If first-seat is not very sound, and third seat can be garbage, then the combination of garbage + bad 11 count is not necessarily the strong pair, so you can't force.

[Codo]

I believe, that the double noormally shows the desire to penalisze one major. In this case, I wouldn´t double with the given hand.

If it shows cards- which I would prefer and which was the describtion at the table- I would now bid 2 NT to show my values and my shape.
Pd may correct this to 3 Club.

I think that this is one of the rare situations, where it still could be natural.