[awm]

Anyone have a good auction for this pair of hands (using any system/methods you prefer):

Scoring: MP

---

Assume that it's matchpoints in a strong field. Opponents are not bidding.

[pbleighton]

1C(16+)-1NT-2D-3D-3S-4H-6D

Peter

[hrothgar]

I haven't found a convincing MOSCITO auction that lets me safely ask for the Jack of Spades. I can produce an auction to 7♦, but I can't justify it single dummy...

[Wiste1]

1♣(16+) - 1NT(11-13)
2♦(5+♦) - 3♦(support)
3♠(4+♠) - 3NT(natural)
4♦ - 4♥(cue)
5♣(exlus.) - 5♠((2kc-no Q)
5NT(grand-try) - 6♦(nothing more to show)

[Echognome]

Nope. No good way to reach grand. In echo club we reach the small slam. Furthermore, South would have a tough time between distinguishing the actual hand and xx Kxxx Kxxx Kxx or even xx Kxxx Qxxx Axx. Systemically we cannot ask for the J in a suit of Jx (as we only scan doubletons once). Tough hand.

Anyway, the echo club auction is:

1♣(1) - 1NT(2) [(1)16+ any, (2)positive balanced]
2♣® - 2♦(3) [(3)44 reds or blacks or 4333 with a major]
2♥® - 2NT(4) [(4)2=4=4=3 exactly]
3♦(5) - 3♠(6) [(5)control ask, (6)3 controls]
4♣(7) - 4NT(8) [(7)scanning, (8)♥,♦, and ♣ A,K, or Q, but no ♠A,K, or Q]
6♦

The shame about the hand is that with two control cards, we start showing Qs in our 2nd suit. It often works great for efficiency, but makes this hand very difficult. If North had not shown a club honour, it would make finding 7♦ a little more realistic.

[HeartA]

1D - 1H
2S - 3D
4D - 4H
5C - 5D
6/7D

[the hog]

J5
AT86
K842
QJT

AKQ86
Q4
AJT765
Using old style Moscito
1C 1N
2C 2D
2H 2S
2N 3C
3D 3S Shows 2443 shape with 6AKQ controls
4C 4D Something in H, D, C, not S
5C 5D No second hon H
5H 5S No second hon D
5N 6C No second hon C
6D 6S J of S, no J of H

As you can see, this has to bypass the potentailly safe haven of 6D to play in a problematical 6S if J of S is not shown.

[ulven]

In my own relay system this is a trivial hand because I've reserved an initial 1H-response for all balanced hands and then goes into reversed relays where strong hand reveals his hand instead (using the same scheme).

Lacking that possibility it's hard to see how to bid this grand.

/Ulf

[Gerben42]

My Fantunes system:

1♦ (13+ unbalanced)
- 1♠ (4+♥)
3♠ (Limited, 6 - 5)
- 4♦ (Slam interest)
4♠ (No ♥ control)
- 4NT (RKC)
6♣ (2 + useful void)
- 6♠ (If you have no ♥ control your ♠ must be good enough for 6♠)
Pass

[MickyB]

If you have already shown 5S6D and no heart control, is it really necessary to jump over 4N to show your void?

I feel like I should be able to get there with detailed enough agreements...it will start

1♦:1♥
1♠:3♦
3♠:4♦
4♠:4N
5♣:5♦

3♠ shows 5-6, 4♦ shows good trumps (if they were only Kxx responder would have cued 4♥), no club control and denies 3♠, 4♠ cue denies A/K♥ but could still have shortage, 4N shows an even number of keycards, 5♦ is an attempt to play due to not having much more to show. There's now rather a lot of room, but 5NT (normally denying the trump queen) isn't defined on this auction. There's probably a case for responder to cue his jack of spades now on the basis that K♦, A♥, Q♠ would be a huge hand on this auction and could just take control...I'm not sure if this auction is technically achievable or not, but I'm certain we wouldn't be confident enough to pull it off!

[Gerben42]

Quote

If you have already shown 5S6D and no heart control, is it really necessary to jump over 4N to show your void?

Probably not but this is not a well-agreed part of the system.

[Free]

I think I get there with my (and Gert's) fantunes system:
1♦ - 2♣! (14+, 4+♦, unbal - GF bal / ♣ / ♦ support)
3♠ - 4♦ (5♠ & 6♦ - sets ♦)
4♥! - 4NT! (even nr of keycards - ♥ cue)
6♣! - 7♦ (void ♣ - joy)

I'm not sure if we'd understand the 6♣ bid, should double check. Since 5♣ would be cue, 6♣ 'should' show a hand like this.

[zasanya]

System Power Precision
1♣=16+ 1nt=9-14 balanced
2♦=natural and asking bid 2NT=Qxx or better ♦ less than 4 controls
3♠=natural 3NT=natural (stoppers)
4♣=cue 4♥=cue
4♠=cue 5♦=sign off
6♦

[FrancesHinden]

Playing natural methods the start is easy, there's just one rather dodgy bit at the end...


1D 1H
1S 3D
3S 4H (cue)
4S (cue) 5D

5D is encouraging (4NT would be discouraging)
Opener knows there is no A or K of clubs opposite yet partner is prepared to encourage looking for a slam so must have nice non-club cards. That's enough for opener to bid

5NT (grand slam force)

now responder needs to decide Kxxx is worth 2 top diamond honours and bid a grand.... you might do knowing partner is 6-5 (from the 3S rebid) so it's a 10 card diamond fit.

[inquiry]

I had planned on not talking about misiry for a bit longer, but since this hand calls for it and is posted to non-natural systems, I guess I will drag it out again... . no one but misho and I and hannie and I play this..so this is of limited value. In the first case, we will not bump to 4♥ (which we would at the table)

Scoring: MP


3♦ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
4NT - 5♣
5NT - 7♦

---

3♦ = either a normal preempt in hearts, or a strong two suiter with diamonds and a black suit. This is the strong variety

3♥ = pass/correct

3♠ = spade/diamond two suiter, 4 losers

4♣ = denial cue-bid, denies club control neurtal on heart control

4NT = I have ♣ under control (if I had two quick losers in clubs, I would bid 4♦, I need any ♥ cover (ace or king) (if I didn't need a heart control I would also have bid 4♦ = YOU WOULD COUNT you covers and bid slam if you had three outside of hearts and clubs anyway), if I only needed the heart ace, I would have bid 4♥. If I held both of my anchor queens and either type heart control was working, I would have rebid 4♠ (higher anchor suit). Thus for 4NT, I am missing ♦Q and either heart control works. So responder knows 3 of the 4 losers (KQ of D, A of hearts). If opener has xx or Kxx of hearts, there would be fourth cover here.

5♣ = asking if non0materail king of hearts is a cover (a non-material cue-bid) Why does five club ask about hearts? Opener showed any heart cover will do, so must have at least two hearts, thus at most one club. Why is this a non-material heart king? Responder with the heart king, would know it was working, but he might not know, for instance, if he held a singleton heart or a hand like this where his hearts can be pitched are working. Opener would bid 5♦ if the non-material heart king was not working.

5♥ = yes, king of hearts is also a cover, extra legnth in diamonds (6♦ would be yes, non-material king of hearts working, but no extra legnth, 5♠ would be yes, extra legnth in spades.

7♦ ok.. you are 5-2-6-0 with AKQ of spades, xx of hearts, and Axxxxx of diamonds, I don't know about the diamond jack, but we do have 10 of them.

At the table, however, after a VULNERABLE 3♦, north would bid 4♥. The bidding is cramped then. The bidding would be...

3♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT
5♣ - 5♥
5♠ - 5NT
6♦ - 7♦

4♥ = raising the heart preempt to game
4♠ = spade/diamond two suiter, 3 or 4 losers
4NT = shows heart king!!!
5♣ = heart king working, I am missing one anchor suit queen (unknown which)
5♥ = which queen is missing?
5♠ = queen of diamonds (cheaper, this is a paradox bid)
5NT = bid your longest suit, or lacking that, bid your better suit. Better is defined here as suit wtih the JACK, so AJxxx is "better" than AKQxx, since responder should know about the ACES and KINGS
6♦ = I have either six diamonds, or five diamonds to the jack
7♦ = not as sure as last auction...

Over 6♦ you are in position to quess here. Not sure if yo uwant to guess seven, but you might. Here, opener has announced, 1) need for heart king, missing diamond Queen. So we know all four of his losers.. xx in hearts (since we have the ACE) and the KQ of diamonds. At worse he is AKQxx xx AJxxx A, he could also hold AKQxx xx AJxxxx void, and AKQxx xx Axxxxx void. There just isn't enough room to find out for certain about the extra legnth.

[Walddk]

1♦ - 1♥
1♠ - 2NT
3♠ - 4♦
4♠ - 4NT
5♥ - 5NT
7♦ - pass

It doesn't look too difficult even if you don't play a strong club relay system.

3♠ = 5-6 in spades and diamonds.
4♠ = cue bid, no heart cue bid, so my shape is known to be 5-2-6-0.
5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♦Q.
5N = grand slam try.
7♦ = my spades are plenty good to provide the pitches we need.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Oct 2 2006, 04:59 PM, said:

1♦ - 1♥
1♠ - 2NT
3♠ - 4♦
4♠ - 4NT
5♥ - 5NT
7♦ - pass

It doesn't look too difficult even if you don't play a strong club relay system.

3♠ = 5-6 in spades and diamonds.
4♠ = cue bid, no heart cue bid, so my shape is known to be 5-2-6-0.
5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♦Q.
5N = grand slam try.
7♦ = my spades are plenty good to provide the pitches we need.

Roland

I think that the relay players are being a bit more honest about their auction (I'll note that the relay partnerships, by and large AREN'T finding the grand because the hand with the Jack of Spades is showing rather than asking)

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

♠ 65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ84
♣ QJT

Alternatively, give North

♠ J65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ9
♣ QJT

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Oct 2 2006, 04:56 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 2 2006, 04:59 PM, said:

1♦ - 1♥
1♠ - 2NT
3♠ - 4♦
4♠ - 4NT
5♥ - 5NT
7♦ - pass

It doesn't look too difficult even if you don't play a strong club relay system.

3♠ = 5-6 in spades and diamonds.
4♠ = cue bid, no heart cue bid, so my shape is known to be 5-2-6-0.
5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♦Q.
5N = grand slam try.
7♦ = my spades are plenty good to provide the pitches we need.

Roland

I think that the relay players are being a bit more honest about their auction (I'll note that the relay partnerships, by and large AREN'T finding the grand)

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

♠ 65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ84
♣ QJT

Alternatively, give North

♠ J65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ8
♣ QJT

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

Yes, I believe so..

1. I will find it because responder has *four* trumps and can count 13 tricks if opener's spades are good enough.

2. I will settle for a small slam because responder has *three* trumps and three spades. Now he knows that opener doesn't have enough to cover all 3 heart losers.

The 4th trump in your example 1 and in Adam's example hand combined with 2 and 3 spades respectively makes all the difference.

Roland

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Oct 2 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

♠ 65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ84
♣ QJT

Alternatively, give North

♠ J65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ9
♣ QJT

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

I know you think only the strong hand should relay, but not all systems are built that way. I acutally think a strong two suiter that fits within certain ranges, either hand can ask/show effectively. I am also not sure if you included my misiry auctions into "relayers" group, ... but the answer is I can bid both these new hand just fine. However, I don't bid grand on either of them opposite the given opener hand...I am surprised you think you should bid one of them...

On both hands, opener will show a second round heart control is needed and the diamond queen is missing, so the four losers are known.. Heart xx, D-KQ, so responder will know about the AKQxx of spades.On the first hand, responder can ask about the spade JACK, via the 5NT bid on some auctions (bid longer suit or best suit.. best suit defined as suit with the jack... if opener, after showing six diamond will not bid 6S unless he has the spade jack... so with

xx
ATxx
KQxx
QJX

You can trott out 5NT and if partner bids 6S, correct to 7D, otherwise, you are forced to pass since 7D since playing for 3-3 spades is too big a gamble.

On the second hand, with
Jxx
ATxx
KQx
xxx

You know you have ony two pitches on the long spades, so you have no way to cover partners second heart loser. Os you would stop, probably in 6S instead of 6D especially at mp. Seems like it is you who are in trouble on the second one if you bid the grand ... 6D, 5S and 1H is not enough...

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Oct 2 2006, 07:38 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 2 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

Change the hands slightly and give North the following

♠ 65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ84
♣ QJT

Alternatively, give North

♠ J65
♥ AT86
♦ KQ9
♣ QJT

Do you find the grand on the first hand and avoid it on the second?

I know you think only the strong hand should relay, but not all systems are built that way. I acutally think a strong two suiter that fits within certain ranges, either hand can ask/show effectively. I am also not sure if you included my misiry auctions into "relayers" group, ... but the answer is I can bid both these new hand just fine. However, I don't bid grand on either of them opposite the given opener hand...I am surprised you think you should bid one of them...

I should have been more clear in my original posting:

The "first" hand - the good grand was the one originally posted.

I consider both hands that I posted to be problematic and would not want to play a grand with either.