[Al_U_Card]

By you, do you want to mean me? I have one way to show 15-18 with stopper(s) ie 1NT and one way to show 15-18 without stopper ie Dbl. What I do with the continuation depends on the response, the state of the auction and the nature of my hand. I am afraid that I don't follow your statement regarding the relevence of the 5 card suit within a NT philosophy as it is a non sequitor for me....

[FrancesHinden]

Al_U_Card, on Oct 2 2006, 09:45 PM, said:

Now, if doubler rebid 3C, over the 2H response, is he looking for a C stopper or is he showing the GF hand that may or may not have H, or...?

1C x P 2H P
?

If I double on a hand that is planning to bid a new suit over partner's minimum response to a double (e.g. 1C x P 1H P 2D) then, traditionally, I have significant extra values (originally this would have been virtually any 16+ but the more recent trend towards strong overcalls has put the limit higher).

So if I have enough to double and bid a new suit, then over a jump response from partner a new suit has to be forcing; there is no need to cue bid.

That leaves the cue bid after a jump response to be one of two hand types:

1. Extra values, no primary suit, no primary heart fit (a typical hand might be a 4=3=4=2 16-count).

2. Primary heart support and slam interest.

The second of these is actually pretty rare and can usually look after itself. It's rare, not only because slam interest opposite a 2H bid is unusual, but in particular slam interest that doesn't want to splinter or use Blackwood is even more unusual. Either way responder doesn't have to worry about it as it will become clear next round.

[kenberg]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 3 2006, 09:09 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Oct 2 2006, 09:45 PM, said:

Now, if doubler rebid 3C, over the 2H response, is he looking for a C stopper or is he showing the GF hand that may or may not have H, or...?

1C x P 2H P
?

If I double on a hand that is planning to bid a new suit over partner's minimum response to a double (e.g. 1C x P 1H P 2D) then, traditionally, I have significant extra values (originally this would have been virtually any 16+ but the more recent trend towards strong overcalls has put the limit higher).

So if I have enough to double and bid a new suit, then over a jump response from partner a new suit has to be forcing; there is no need to cue bid.

That leaves the cue bid after a jump response to be one of two hand types:

1. Extra values, no primary suit, no primary heart fit (a typical hand might be a 4=3=4=2 16-count).

2. Primary heart support and slam interest.

The second of these is actually pretty rare and can usually look after itself. It's rare, not only because slam interest opposite a 2H bid is unusual, but in particular slam interest that doesn't want to splinter or use Blackwood is even more unusual. Either way responder doesn't have to worry about it as it will become clear next round.

This makes sense and, importantly for rare auctions, is consistent with the originally posted rare auction:

X-2H-2N: We have enough for game but I am not sure where.
X-2H-3C: We have enough for game but I am not sure where.

The first shows club controls, the second doesn't. Or so I understand your comments.

[joshs]

There really are two different ways of playing it:
a. a limit bid 15-16ish with a stopper (INV opposite partner's Good8- bad 11)
b. 15+ with a stopper, Forcing. This is a hand that might prefer to play in a suit (although not necisarily's partner's suit), but does have a stopper. Its terrible to have to jump to 3N with just a single stopper and takeout x shape (say 4342). The jump should be reserved for a 19 count, with little interest in playing in a suit, that just had to x the first time since was too good for 1N.

I am firmly in the b camp on general principles: I.E. Asking partner's opinion for a strain, and then over-ruling:
1. shows extras
2. is forcing if partner showed values

[awm]

While I mostly agree with Josh, I'd like to add another point for discussion:

(1) If partner's bid did not show values (basically it was forced by the double), then bidding a different strain shows substantial extras. Normally this is 19+ points, or a bit lighter with a shapely hand. It does not imply support for the suit partner named. This bid is not forcing but very forward-going (a jump change of strain would be GF).

(2) If partner's bid showed values (for example partner jumped, or made a free bid after opponents raised) then a change of strain is forcing to game. However, this does not necessarily promise 19+ or equivalent. If partner showed 8-11 or thereabouts via a jump, then a good 16 is sufficient. Of course, if doubler doesn't have 19+ then he should have some sort of tolerance for partner's suit (otherwise what did he plan to do if partner bid the suit without guaranteeing values?).