[Flame]

(1♣) D (p) 2♥
(P) 2nt

what does 2nt show ?

[Echognome]

Good 18 to bad 21 bal for me.

[Flame]

im thinking since its 18+ then it should be forcing.
Now since its forcing maybe it better be unlimited so we can find 5-3 heart fits or any other fit for game/slam perposes.

[blackshoe]

You have 18 (or more, sure, but you might have just 18) points. your partner's jump to 2 ♥ shows 9-11, and at least 4 ♥. Of course 2NT is forcing. But unlimited? What do you think 3NT (instead of 2NT) by you should show?

Put it another way - if 2NT is unlimited, then advancer needs to keep slam in mind. If 2NT is limited, he doesn't. Which situation would you rather be in?

[whereagles]

17-21 would bid 3NT. This is more like 15-16 with take-out dbl shape (hence no 1NT overcall).

For example:

KQxx
Axx
Kxxx
Ax

[Flame]

blackshoe, on Sep 30 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

You have 18 (or more, sure, but you might have just 18) points. your partner's jump to 2 ♥ shows 9-11, and at least 4 ♥. Of course 2NT is forcing. But unlimited? What do you think 3NT (instead of 2NT) by you should show?

Put it another way - if 2NT is unlimited, then advancer needs to keep slam in mind. If 2NT is limited, he doesn't. Which situation would you rather be in?

Do you understand the benefits of bidding 2NT opposite to 3NT ?
And about the 15-16 bal, anyone else think it should be this way ?

[blackshoe]

Flame, on Oct 1 2006, 05:57 AM, said:

Do you understand the benefits of bidding 2NT opposite to 3NT ?

Of course. So?

You didn't answer my question. Given that you play 2NT as 18-21 or thereabouts, what does 3NT show?

[FrancesHinden]

whereagles, on Oct 1 2006, 08:07 AM, said:

17-21 would bid 3NT. This is more like 15-16 with take-out dbl shape (hence no 1NT overcall).

For example:

KQxx
Axx
Kxxx
Ax

That looks like a 3C bid to me.
That club holding screams out for partner to declare NT, or possibly for us to play in a 4-3 major suit fit. If you bid 3C, partner can happily bid 3NT holding Qxx in clubs or similar.

I agree that it's still a hand too good for a 1NT overcall.

As 2H was a limit bid, 3NT sounds like a hand that wants to play in 3NT opposite 5 hearts and is expecting partner to pass. 2NT, while I agree it should be forcing, is more interested in alternative strains.

[kenrexford]

Add one more for semi-balanced, 15-16, three hearts.

[kgr]

blackshoe, on Oct 1 2006, 06:38 PM, said:

Flame, on Oct 1 2006, 05:57 AM, said:

Do you understand the benefits of bidding 2NT opposite to 3NT ?

Of course. So?

You didn't answer my question. Given that you play 2NT as 18-21 or thereabouts, what does 3NT show?

I wonder how experts play this. Normally DBL followed by bidding NT at lowest possible level shows 18-19 HCP.
But I'm not sure that this is also true after the jump of your partner.
I would say:
(1C)-DBL-2H-2NT: AQxx-xx-AKxx-AQx (GF in my opinion)
(1C)-DBL-2H-2NT: AQxx-x-AKQxxx-Kx (source of tricks in minor)

[P_Marlowe]

blackshoe, on Sep 30 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

<snip>
Put it another way - if 2NT is unlimited, then advancer needs to keep slam in mind. If 2NT is limited, he doesn't. Which situation would you rather be in?
<snip>

Hi,

although slam may still be an option,
slam is unlikely, they did open, and
unless the opening bid was a psych,
our side has at most 30HCP.
In other words, it does not really
matter how limited 2NT is, since.
you need great fits to compensate
for the lack ot HCP.

2NT is forcing, but gives partner the
chance to tell more about his hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

I don't know what it shows but if I had four hearts I would raise to 3NT and if I had five hearts I would rebid hearts. If by any chance I had six hearts I would rebid 4H. My strength is pretty sharply limited (2H was passable) so it seems I'll now try to explain about my heart length. If partner knows how many hearts I have and what my strength is, he should be able to proceed sensibly.

If I am to guess what it shows, my guess is that he has a hand where he would have bid 1NT had I responded 1H. That is, he has a hand too strong for a 1NT overcall. But if I'm not right, it doesn't matter since it seems my course is clear whatever he has.

[awm]

Natural and game forcing. Denies holding 4♥.

I don't think this necessarily shows a hand that would've rebid 1NT after the double and a one-level response (that would be 19-21 or thereabouts). Of course, if I did hold that hand I would also bid this way. It's just a way of establishing a force and showing doubler's general hand type.

So something like 15+ hcp, balanced or semi-balanced, stopper in opener's suit.

[mikeh]

Forcing to game, and for me the 2♥ shows a good 8+, hence to gf, doubler needs a prime 16+, and denies 4♥ and promises positional ♣ stoppers: hence not worried about wrong-siding notrump. Classically prime 18+: maybe AJxx KJx Kxxx AQ. I suppose it could be great 16-17, but I could not construct such a hand in the minute or two I spent worrying about it. All such (obvious) constructions seemed to call for a 1N overcalll.

[HeartA]

whereagles, on Oct 1 2006, 02:07 AM, said:

17-21 would bid 3NT. This is more like 15-16 with take-out dbl shape (hence no 1NT overcall).

For example:

KQxx
Axx
Kxxx
Ax

I would bid a direct 1NT holding
KQxx
Axx
Kxxx
Ax.

I agree that it has the original meeting of 1NT if pd bid 1X. That is, it shows 18-20(or bad 21) HCP with balanced hand, as some others mentioned here.

[Al_U_Card]

A conundrum but not illogical. Responder has shown 8 (with a 5 card suit) to 11 hcp with 4+ H. Pard did not overcall 1NT 15-18 with C stopped but now he appears to be showing a balanced hand without H but with C. ( Why double and not bid NT? )

I believe the double must be showing a moderate take-out double with 3 H (hence the use of the double) and a "wasted" value in C (Qx). Thus, the hand shown is 4342 and since he is asking:

depending on the responder's C holdings for H or NT play;

if the hand is 8 with 5H (bid 3H)
if the hand is 9 with 4H (pass)

etc.

This leads me to believe that the doubler as well as having 4342 has from 14-16 hcp and downgraded his hand for the original NT overcall.

[Al_U_Card]

Now, if doubler rebid 3C, over the 2H response, is he looking for a C stopper or is he showing the GF hand that may or may not have H, or...?

[Flame]

Thanks for the answers, i think that most agree it should be GF unlimited, which is much more flexiable then jumping to 3NT with more pnts. no need to tell partner what we have when we know what he got and its better one side know alot then both sides know little. as for the 15-16 it might be usfull but i wouldnt spend a bid for a specific hand.

[Al_U_Card]

Flame, on Oct 2 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

Thanks for the answers, i think that most agree it should be GF unlimited, which is much more flexiable then jumping to 3NT with more pnts. no need to tell partner what we have when we know what he got and its better one side know alot then both sides know little. as for the 15-16 it might be usfull but i wouldnt spend a bid for a specific hand.

Interesting interpretation of what most agree on......although this is what you seem to think that it should be.....and those that feel it is forcing.....are likely right but any agreement is better than no agreement and as for showing one type of hand with one bid.....its an interesting concept and is actually quite common...lol

[Flame]

Al_U_Card, on Oct 2 2006, 08:52 PM, said:

Flame, on Oct 2 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

Thanks for the answers, i think that most agree it should be GF unlimited, which is much more flexiable then jumping to 3NT with more pnts. no need to tell partner what we have when we know what he got and its better one side know alot then both sides know little. as for the 15-16 it might be usfull but i wouldnt spend a bid for a specific hand.

Interesting interpretation of what most agree on......although this is what you seem to think that it should be.....and those that feel it is forcing.....are likely right but any agreement is better than no agreement and as for showing one type of hand with one bid.....its an interesting concept and is actually quite common...lol

The problem with your approach is that you want to have 2 ways to show 15-18 bal. Again this has a benefit, but normal bridge logic doesnt do this, for example most players with 5332 15-17 that doesnt have NT oriented honors structure still open 1NT because the system doesnt allow them to show this hand later if they open the 5 cards suit. I cant say your way isnt better.