[Al_U_Card]

Scoring: MP

3♠ p p 4♦
p p 4♥ p
p p

---

How do you feel about the preempt?

Can action be taken after the 4 ♦ bid?

What does pard have for the 4 ♥?

Should you pass it out?

[hrothgar]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 18 2006, 11:33 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

3♠ p  p  4♦
  p  p  4♥ p
  p  p

---

How do you feel about the preempt? 

Can action be taken after the 4 ♦ bid?

What does pard have for the 4 ♥?

Should you pass it out?

I think that 3♠ is quite conservative.
I'd have opened 4...

I would have passed over 4♦

Partner's 4♥ bid is a lead directing raise to 4♠
it can't be passed

[awm]

I too would've opened 4♠.

Having opened only three, I will double 4♦. This will make partner's decision easy on a significant fraction of hands where he is uncertain whether to pass, double, or bid 4♠. Of course occasionally partner will have a weak hand and 4♦X will make, but partner will know I don't have it set in my own hand and can pull to 4♠ if reasonable. Yes, sometimes 4♦ makes and 4♠ is a bad sacrifice, but this hand type is far less likely than the one where 4♦ is down (possibly even multiple tricks) but partner cannot find a double due to a weak diamond holding (or worse, takes a phantom in 4♠X).

Why is 4♥ a spade raise? Partner didn't bid 4♠ over 3♠, so he can't really think we're making 4♠. Sometimes when partner bids something you have to just assume he has the suit he bid -- this game is too complicated when simply bidding a suit in an auction where you have no discussion is automatically fit-showing, or lead-directional, or last train, or whatever. I'm all for having elaborate agreements but when we haven't talked about it my preferred interpretation is that bidding a new suit says "I have this suit partner."

[HeartA]

hrothgar, on Aug 18 2006, 03:39 PM, said:

I think that 3♠ is quite conservative.
I'd have opened 4...

I would have passed over 4♦

Partner's 4♥ bid is a lead directing raise to 4♠
it can't be passed

4H as "lead directing raise"? It doesn't make sense to me at a passed-out position. I think it is to play (he might be afraid of forcing if he bid 4H at the first place).

BTW, I might open 4S as well, though 3S is also fine.

[hrothgar]

awm, on Aug 18 2006, 11:58 PM, said:

Having opened only three, I will double 4♦. This will make partner's decision easy on a significant fraction of hands where he is uncertain whether to pass, double, or bid 4♠. Of course occasionally partner will have a weak hand and 4♦X will make, but partner will know I don't have it set in my own hand and can pull to 4♠ if reasonable. Yes, sometimes 4♦ makes and 4♠ is a bad sacrifice, but this hand type is far less likely than the one where 4♦ is down (possibly even multiple tricks) but partner cannot find a double due to a weak diamond holding (or worse, takes a phantom in 4♠X).

I think that we have a good chance of beating 4♦
Who knows, LHO might raise to 5, giving us an even better chance of beating 5♦

Why would I want to double and give the opponent's a chance to find their heart fit?

[goodwintr]

Double. A breach of discipline -- but then, opening three spades was also a breach of discipline (talk about being old-fashioned, I would have opened one spade). Doubling four diamonds may enable partner to double a conversion to four hearts.

I have never heard, much less participated in, the given sequence (where I pass four diamonds and my partner bids four hearts). I doubt if he is sacrificing against a possible 130, so he must think he can make four hearts. Still, he could have bid that right over three spades if that is what he thinks, so I don't know why he is doing it now. I am eagerly awaiting his explanation.

TLG

[neilkaz]

The 3♠ preempt is fine, although so is 4♠. There's no 8 HCP hand with 1 honor trick that I'd open at the 1 level so I am more conservative than some here.

Anyhow.. just pass 4♦ and wait to double 5♦ if they get there since you'll probably set it, and won't score well if it somehow makes.

I have no clue what PD's 4♥ bid is. If he wanted to play it, why didn't he bid it directly ? If he wanted to play 4♠ or to further the preempt, why not immediately ? His decision to compete vs a non game 4♦ after passing is VERY strange. I guess he wants to compete and wants a ♥ lead or he is offering a choice of 4M to me. With that in mind, I bid 4S and certainly double if the opps carry on to 5♦.

I expect the post-mortum discussion of PD's 4♥ may not be so pleasant.

.. neilkaz ..

[whereagles]

7-4's bid more: 4♠ (opening, of course )

[Codo]

1. 4 Spade, always
2. X, never did it but will try it on my next occasion.
3. 4 Spade with a little fear.

Maybe pd has my hand just in Hearts and clubs. In that case, any bid after 4 Heart makes things worse. But I doubt that. He bidded after he heard the 4 Diamond call. There is NO reason to defend against 4 of a minor in the pass out seat.
So I guess, that this call improved his hand. Maybe he is looking at some 2614 hand with some Highcards? I belive so and bid a confident 4 Spade.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

How do I feel about the preempt?
It is a matter of partnership agreement,
what a 3 level preempt has to look like,
in my partnership, we would open 4S.

Can further action be taken?
Again a partnership agreement, but an
unsual one.
In my partnership we discussed
it only after a game preemp, since those
preempts are sometimes above the min.
req., we sometimes stretch to preempt at
the 3 level.
And in the current situation it does not really
make sense, they are in a partscore, what do
we gain, that we play MP is irrelevant.
IF I felt 3S was enough the round before, I stick
with my conviction.

What does partner have for 4H?
No idea, I doubt that there exists a hand, which justifies
a 4H bid, I was wrong before, I may be wrong now.

Should you pass it out?
Yes, if 3S showed my hand, partner did not ask me to
join the party.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[the hog]

hrothgar, on Aug 19 2006, 06:39 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Aug 18 2006, 11:33 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

3♠ p   p  4♦
  p   p  4♥ p
  p   p

---

How do you feel about the preempt? 

Can action be taken after the 4 ♦ bid?

What does pard have for the 4 ♥?

Should you pass it out?

I think that 3♠ is quite conservative.
I'd have opened 4...

I would have passed over 4♦

Partner's 4♥ bid is a lead directing raise to 4♠
it can't be passed

Agree 100% with Richard.

[FrancesHinden]

I am happy with the 3S opening. I would also be happy with a 4S opening.
I pass 4D (it's called partnership discipline).

I can work out what 4H means by working backwards. I am certain that 4H over 3S shows a strong desire to play in 4H. Therefore, partner does not have a strong desire to play in 4H. I think he is tempted by his diamond shortage into assuming our hands fit better than they might do, and he is offering the choice of 4H or 4S. I expect 2-6 or so in the majors.

It is entirely consistent to want to play 3S initially, but not to want to defend 4D.

[SoTired]

Many analysts in this discussion have hinted at a possible cause for partner's 4H and you can't decide what to bid without considering it: Has partner lost his/her mind? Look at partner. Any drool coming out? Animated finger movements? Inability to hold 13 cards in one hand? ....No? .... Well.... Since you have chosen this person from all the players in the world to be your very own bridge partner, you must assume that partner's 4H is a brilliant bid and act accordingly. Maybe you should have opened 4S.... Maybe double 4D.... but you can't rewind the clock so you have to think.

Since partner is not insane or stupid, partner could not have suddenly discovered an 8-card heart suit previously overlooked; therefore, spades is a better trump suit.

4S

If the opps have the tenacity to bid 5D, I will definitely double that and know for sure which singleton to lead.

[HeartA]

SoTired, on Aug 22 2006, 07:23 AM, said:

Many analysts in this discussion have hinted at a possible cause for partner's 4H and you can't decide what to bid without considering it: Has partner lost his/her mind? Look at partner. Any drool coming out? Animated finger movements? Inability to hold 13 cards in one hand? ....No? .... Well.... Since you have chosen this person from all the players in the world to be your very own bridge partner, you must assume that partner's 4H is a brilliant bid and act accordingly. Maybe you should have opened 4S.... Maybe double 4D.... but you can't rewind the clock so you have to think.

Since partner is not insane or stupid, partner could not have suddenly discovered an 8-card heart suit previously overlooked; therefore, spades is a better trump suit.

4S

If the opps have the tenacity to bid 5D, I will definitely double that and know for sure which singleton to lead.

Well, I don't agree. It is true that one should trust partner, but it doesn't mean that (s)he is the (only) prefect fit for you, nor does it mean that (s)he is the best player. After all, we are all humans and do wrong things from time to time. The 4H bid is beyond my understanding and surely not a cue-bid, so I pass (as many say on this forum, if you don't understand a bid, pass it).

[Al_U_Card]

lol Others also say that if you don't understand a bid, then it is forcing......I like the argument that this is a H suit with a S preference and short D with values to push. While I reject the 4D double as rebidding after a preempt, after the 4H, 4S makes sense and double of 5D (if they bid it) can also win. The other hand is shown

Decent playing potential and it is mp after all....

---

[the hog]

"(as many say on this forum, if you don't understand a bid, pass it). "
Who says this? Quite the contrary, if you don't understand a bid then work out what it means. Passing is destroying partnership trust! As Frances has said, pd did not bid 4H over 4S!
My guess is he has
xxx
AQxx
x
Hxxxx
He was hoping to buy it in 3S but now is willing to take a push and is suggesting a lead.

[kenrexford]

Add one more vote for 4♥ as clearly fit-showing and lead-directional.