[flytoox]

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how does responder show the 6 card preemptive suit?

good point. Last night i had such a hand:
S: X
H: XX
D: JTX
C: QJT87XX

Ben opened 1S, I passed. Seems 1N followed by 3c better. Currently, 1N can still include this kind offshape response.

[inquiry]

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hi guys.. trying to follow this (i wasn't in the bidding room long enough to grasp the concept)... is this right or wrong?

1M : 2C = either 8-11 3 card support OR gf with clubs OR 10-13 balanced?


1M : 2C
2M = 10-12, 13 5 card major?

Hi,

If you instant message me, I will be happy to share with you the notes on what it is we are trying to do here. The big picture is:

1M -
2M = weak 3 card raise (bad 8 hcp or less)
3M = preemptive 4 card raise (0-7 hcp, 4 card support)
3C/3D = fit jump, not forcing beyond 3M. less than GF value (else 2/1)
2NT = limit raise or better (most common replies are
3C = I would not bid game opposite limit raise OR slam try
3D = I do accept game try opposite limit raise, but no slam interest)
2C = true 2/1 game force, or
any balance hand with 11-12 hcp (2/3 card support), or
balanance hand with 13+ hcp and 2 card support, or
constructive 2 level raise (8-9 hcp, with 3 or 4 card support), or
3 card limit raise with 3 card support (11-12)

Your speculation that:
1M : 2C
2D = better than min, from 14 on?

Is right on target. This is backwards from the replies many others use. For instance, after 2C, many people who use 2C as artificial use 2D as the only "minimum response". We use the more natural sounding 2M.

You also read correctly that 1NT is now only "semi-forcing". There is a reason for this. In standard 2/1 GF, the 1NT response can hold a fit for the major (say 11-12 with 3 card fit). That can;t happen here. Also, many people play that 1NT can hold balanced hand with 13-15 or even more (if no five card fit suit exist). So clearly, if the forcing 1NT can contain a game forcing hand, it can never be safely passed.

Here, the big NT hands and the fit hands are removed from 1NT. It is still semi-forcing and should be almost never passed. I think the answer to your question about how to handle a hand with a preemptive 6 card suit needs to be handled in another thread on the off-loaded 1NT response. But you are right, we also do not allow "preemptive" jumpshift here. Instead, we use the fit jump mechanisms. Let me handle just the two examples you gave....

1M : 2C 1M : 2D 1M : 2C
2any : 3C 2any : 3D 3C : p

First, not all 1M-1NT-2any-3C auctions are created the same. This is because we have availabe BART, impossible 2S, etc. Let's look at the different ways to show club support

1S - 1NT - 2C - 3C (play this as weak, five card raise, but pass weakest)
1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2x - 3C (using BART, strong raise)
1S - 1NT - 2C - 3S - max club fit probably 6 and doublton S honor

BTW.. on this auction with BART and impossible 2S available...
1H - 1NT - 2C - 3D shows weak hand with long diamonds
1H - 1NT - 2C - 2S (impossible 2S shows relay to 2NT)
1H-1NT-2C-2S-2NT-3C = good club raise
1H-1NT-2C-2S-2NT-3D = good diamond suit
1H - 1NT - 2C - 2NT show singleton H, suggest long D and club tolerance (3-1-5-4, 2-1-6-3) remember balanced hand go through 2C
1H - 1NT - 2D - 2S = same relay with 3C/3D showing good suit

Now, BART or impossible 2S is not available on two auctions...

1S - 1NT - 2H or,
1S - 1NT - 2D

Here we play reverse good/bad 2NT... so that

1S - 1NT - 2H - 3C/3D = weak
1S - 1NT - 2H - 2NT = reverse good/bad 2NT opener will not bid 3C if he would continue over a good 3C bid. Originally we played nornal good bad, but that meant remembering that immediate 3C was weak sometimes and strong sometimes. Reversing it made it easier to remember.

Let's look at just one example... when responder has hearts...

1S - 1NT - 2D - 2H - weakest bid.. I want to play 2H
1S - 1NT - 2D - 3H = mildly game invite in hearts, see next auction
1S - 1Nt - 2D - 2NT* - 3C* - 3H - strongest way, very close to 2/1 bid

Of course all three heart bids above can be passed or opener can make game try over 2H or bid game over either 3H bids. You can get way with 2NT being "tolerance" for minor or reverse good bad in the above auctions because the balanced hand responses are taken out of the 1NT response hands (thanks to 2C bid).



Ben

[Felix]

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I use this structure and find it very powerful:

After 1H opening:
1S - relay, 5-11, 0-4S
1NT - 5+S
2C - GF relay
2D - TRF support
a) 10-11 BAL with 3H
8-11 with 3H UNB
c) 6-8 mini SPL
d) 9-11 with any void, 4+H
2H - support, up to 9 LT
2S - 4/5H, BAL, 7-11
2NT - GF, 4+H, any SGL
3m - 6+m, 8-11 INV. good suit
3H - preemptive
3NT - 12+, any void, 4+H
3S/4C/4D - 9-11 SGL, 4+H
4H - 6-8, 5/6H UNB

After 1S opening:
1NT - 5-11, semi-forcing
2C - GF relay
2D - TRF for hearts
a) 8-11 with goog 6H
GF with good 5+H
2H - TRF support
a) 10-11 BAL with 3S
8-11 with 3S UNB
c) 6-8 mini SPL
d) 9-11 with any void, 4+S
2S - support, up to 9 LT
2NT - 4/5H, BAL, 7-11
3m - 6+m, 8-11 INV. good suit
3H - GF, 4+S, any SGL
3S - preemptive
3NT - 12+, any void, 4+S
4C/4D/4H - 9-11 SGL, 4+S
4S - 6-8, 5/6S UNB

It was inspired by Bocchi-Duboin notes and little simplified!

I'm not fond of systems that force you to relay with all GF hands, i think that natural bidding has a lot of merit...it's good to have the choice wether to ask p to describe his hand or to bid naturally and describe your hand.

Felix

[luke warm]

Quote

Quote

how does responder show the 6 card preemptive suit?

good point. Last night i had such a hand:
S: X
H: XX
D: JTX
C: QJT87XX

Ben opened 1S, I passed. Seems 1N followed by 3c better. Currently, 1N can still include this kind offshape response.

still no good, because what if it had gone:
1S : 1NT : pass ?

if 1nt isn't forcing, it isn't forcing.. can't have it both ways.. seems to me like 1M : 2m : any : 3m might work

[luke warm]

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The big picture is:
~~snipped to keep from putting too much in one msg, thanks very much for all you wrote and i look forward to those notes

i think i like this... i'm not fond of the whole etm structure (what i read of it anyway), since i simply *love* the micro NT i play, and some of it would interfere...

could 3H be a fit raise over 1S? i suppose so, i can't see much use for a mini splinter there (tho it's possible)

after 1M : 2C, any bid other than 2D or 2M shows what? i think 1H : 2C : 2S should be jump shift, and i think 2NT should show 5 trumps, no aversion to nt, and a hand that is at least of nt playing strength (i'm sure all this is answered in your notes, i'll wait and read it there).. i also think 1S : 2C : 2H should show a real suit, but i'm not quite sure how strong it should be

the absolute best thing about all this is, it forces THOUGHT... too often i've found myself bidding without much of that

i would like to incorporate this major suit structure into 2/1, but i sure would like to keep my minor suit (criss cross) and no trump treatments

thx for your time, i look forward to reading those notes

[flytoox]

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the absolute best thing about all this is, it forces THOUGHT... too often i've found myself bidding without much of that

that is why we like natural sys:) I hate to memorize too much stuffs, coz i am aging, 8)

[luke warm]

hey, i just had a thought (not much of one, and not a deep one)... it concerns this treatment and something that some already use... say you open 1H.. now instead of 1nt being semi forcing, why not bid 1S with < 4 spades, allowing opener to signoff in 1nt? that way, 1nt by responder can promise spades... neither 1S nor 1nt would show heart support

i'm sure there are holes in this, like i said i didn't really think it thru... and it does nothing for a 1S opening

[inquiry]

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snip

[*][is] 3H be a fit raise over 1S?

Yes


[*] after 1M : 2C, any bid other than 2D or 2M shows what?

Absolute game force, slam interest, except for 1S-2C-2H. If it is a new suit, it shows two suiter with very good suits.


[*][Should] 2NT should show 5 trumps, no aversion to nt, and a hand that is at least of nt playing strength?

Shows a balanced hand, five card major that is too strong for a 1NT opening bid (I open 1NT with 5 card majors).


[*][Does] 1S : 2C : 2H should show a real suit?

Yes it shows a real suit, but not promise either extra values or minimum. One has to bid this 4card major when held. You have found the one spot that memorization helps responder. Over 2H the bids are:
2S = the 8 to 10 hcp raise (now not forcing)
3S = the 11-12 3 card support raise
2NT = 11-12 balance, no fit majors
3H = four card heart fit, 8 to bad 11
4H = four card heart fit, 11 to 12

Now 3C and 3D are used to show the authentic 2/1 GF hand with 5 clubs, responder may, or maynot have big fit with one or the other major. Opener bids 3D to find out....

1S - 2C - 2H - 3C - 3D - ?
3H = game force, hearts and clubs
3S = game force, spades and clubs
3NT = 15 to 17 hcp, bal, 3 card H support
4NT = 15 to 17 hcp, bal, 3 card H support

Ben

[Poky]

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Quote

I use this structure and find it very powerful:

After 1H opening:
1S - relay, 5-11, 0-4S
...
4H - 6-8, 5/6H UNB

After 1S opening:
1NT - 5-11, semi-forcing
...
4S - 6-8, 5/6S UNB

It was inspired by Bocchi-Duboin notes and little simplified!

I'm not fond of systems that force you to relay with all GF hands, i think that natural bidding has a lot of merit...it's good to have the choice wether to ask p to describe his hand or to bid naturally and describe your hand.

Felix

Sure. But after the initial Relay you can bid your suits (diamonds or clubs) naturally or continue the Relay. The merit of the Relay is that the responder's hand remains undiscovered nad much harder to defend against it...

[inquiry]

Quote

after 1M : 2C, any bid other than 2D or 2M shows what?

As you saw Jimmy, I responded to this question already in this thread. Then I picked up the ACBL December Bulletin and looked at the "The Bidding Box" quizes. One problem in the ACBL December bidding contest was this pair of hands. Bobby Wolff pointed out that this was an "annoying" hand for 2/1 and standard bidders in that responder raises 1S to 2S. But look at how the 2C structure easily handles this.

KQxxx Jxx
AQJ8 KTxx
x Qxxx
AJx Q9

1S 2C
2H 3H
4H Pass 4H = 12.

How does the 2NT/2C/modified 1NT structure handle the other 1M openings in this quiz? Quite easily, as it turns out. You have the notes, here are the relevant hands.

Kx J9xx
AQTxx J8
Qx KJx
KQJx T863

1H 1NT
2C 2H
Pass

The top score is 1NT and that is certainly reachable if WEST opens 1NT (I would) or if EAST he passes 1NT (only semiforcing, I would not pass however). 1NT = 12, 2H/2C = 10

Ax xxxx
AT8xx Qx
Ax K9
Qxxx K98xx

1H 1S
1NT 2NT (transfer to 3C, 2NT invite goes thru 2way chckback)
3C Pass, or

1H 1NT (ignore xxxx as unbiddable)
2C 3C (bid 2S with "good" 3C or 3D bid)
Pass
3C = 12


Kx Axx
KJTxx x
x QJTxxxx
AKxxx JT

1H 1NT
2C 3D (2D weak, 3D better, longer suit, 7-9 pt)
Pass use 2S to show either good 3C or 3D bid
use immediate 2D to show weak with D
use this jump to 3D to show this hand)

3D = 12.

[MesSer]

Me and my friend is starting to work out our own bidding system based around polish club, 2/1 and our own methods.

1H/1S = 11-17 5+

over this Major opening we have 1NT as non-support and non-forcing in MP 5-12 and forcing in team.
2C as an artificial game force and 2d as a "limit"-raise 8-12(8-15 = 1s-2d-2s-4s) with 3+ support. 2M as any pre-empt. 3M as a pre-empt and 4M as a pre-empt. Opener don't usually move over these bids unless he holds something really weird. Jump shifts as invitational or weak slam-invitational or slam-invitational fit-jumps. (1S-3c-3s-p = weak, 1s-3c-3d-3s = weak, 1s-3c-3s-4s = mild slam invite, 1s-3c-3s-4c=slam invitational). jumps to 4c/4d/4h = limited splinter-bids. We usually blast to game whenever we can and hoping that our anonymous bidding will get us a good score. 2NT is jacoby that might contain a singleton/void and a hand too strong for a direct 4c/4d/4h jump-bid.

Say opener opened 1S then 2c would be artificial game force. Opener then proceeds to show his hand.
1S-2C-?
2D = any non-minimum (14+) hand that doesn't fit for any other bid.
2H = side-suit regardless of strength.
2S = any minimum 5+ unbal/balanced hand.
2NT = 14+ "Balanced"
3C = "good" 5-5
3D = "good" 5-5
3H = "good" 5-5
3S = AKQxxxx Axx x Qx typicaly or similar
3NT = AKQxxx Axx Qx xx typicaly or any 6322 with AKQxxx and 7-7½ quicktricks

After these bids, responder asks opener about his holding in suits, as done in precision.
1S-2c-2s-2NT = asking opener more about his hand
3c = any 4+ minor suit
3d = 3 clubs
3h = 3 dia
3S = 6+

1s-2c-2s-3c = asking about the suit where AKQ counts as honours
1s-2c-2s-3d = asking about the suit where AKQ counts as honours
1step = worse than xxx
2steps = Hx // xxx
3steps = HH // Hxx // xxxx
4steps = HHx // Hxxx or better

We've found this very useful and usually find all the minor suit slams we need to find plus usually finding the correct contract to play in. 5m/4M/3NT

We still have to figure out what 1S-2H should mean though... invitational 5+, non-forcing 5-6+, or game forcing 5+. There are reasons to play all styles...

Of course, we don't make jump fit's when we aren't interested in partners holding in that suit (i.e Qxxx x KQJxxx xx) with this hand we just jump to game and hope it will make. With Qxx xx KJxxx Axx on the other hand, we are quite interested in partners dia holding and will make a jump-fit.

Ah well, these are our methods to raising partners major opening...

[inquiry]

Hi Messr

Welcome to the BBF.

Flytoox may love your method, as he is very interested in harvesting both 2C and 2D as artificial thanks for post it.

I know of a lot of methods that use either 2C or 2D as artificial game force. One method I thought about adopting was a hybrid 2C game force with relay responses. It works like this...

1M - 2C (2C = game force)
?

2D = shows 4+hearts (2NT ask for shortness)
2H = spade one suiter, 2NT ask for shortness)
2S = 4+ clubs, 2NT ask for shortness)
2NT = 4 diamonds,
3C = 5 diamonds, etc.

I found this method on the web and it works pretty well. http://www.firesides.net/golady.htm

Having said that, this did not solve my desire to make a raise of 1S to 2S on xxx xxxx xxx xxx without getting partner too excited. The scheme I am using and the one you describe both allow me to be active on most all fitting hands (of course with appropriate alerts).

Having said that, the idea of being active must not give up natural bidding. It is not the hands were the raises happen (in my case through 1M-2M, or 1M-2C-whatever-M raise), but in the other hands where the bidding is not a raise.

In the case of 2C game force (and virtually any hand), the aggressvie fourth chair preempt before the nature of the responders hand is known. In may case, after 2C, at least opener knows the type of hand... game force with 5+ clubs, fair raise with 3 card support, or balanced 11+ without support. So far, I have been able to land on my feet with aggressive intervention, and if they stay out of the auction, it is easy to separate between these three hand types.

This is not to detract from the 2C artificial game force. I know a large number of world class players use just such a scheme, and it is a key part of a number of systems where it starts relay auctions (for example). In a regular partnership it is clearly a very powerful tool for keeping the bidding low while investigating slam.

Ben

[flytoox]

Quote

Hi Messr

Welcome to the BBF.

Flytoox may love your method, as he is very interested in harvesting both 2C and 2D as artificial thanks for post it.

I know of a lot of methods that use either 2C or 2D as artificial game force. One method I thought about adopting was a hybrid 2C game force with relay responses. It works like this...

1M - 2C (2C = game force)
?

2D = shows 4+hearts (2NT ask for shortness)
2H = spade one suiter, 2NT ask for shortness)
2S = 4+ clubs, 2NT ask for shortness)
2NT = 4 diamonds,
3C = 5 diamonds, etc.

I found this method on the web and it works pretty well. http://www.firesides.net/golady.htm

Having said that, this did not solve my desire to make a raise of 1S to 2S on xxx xxxx xxx xxx without getting partner too excited. The scheme I am using and the one you describe both allow me to be active on most all fitting hands (of course with appropriate alerts).

Having said that, the idea of being active must not give up natural bidding. It is not the hands were the raises happen (in my case through 1M-2M, or 1M-2C-whatever-M raise), but in the other hands where the bidding is not a raise.

In the case of 2C game force (and virtually any hand), the aggressvie fourth chair preempt before the nature of the responders hand is known. In may case, after 2C, at least opener knows the type of hand... game force with 5+ clubs, fair raise with 3 card support, or balanced 11+ without support. So far, I have been able to land on my feet with aggressive intervention, and if they stay out of the auction, it is easy to separate between these three hand types.

This is not to detract from the 2C artificial game force. I know a large number of world class players use just such a scheme, and it is a key part of a number of systems where it starts relay auctions (for example). In a regular partnership it is clearly a very powerful tool for keeping the bidding low while investigating slam.

Ben

I am a bit worried 2C is overloaded. So my opinion is better to use 2C showing:
a) gf with natural suit
8+ -11- 3 card trump spt.
Showing via 2C enable opener to evaluate the game prospectus and hence stop in 2M or bid game. This is relatively simple and I really like it.


On the other hand, if 2c includes all gf hand, then there must be a captain and info receiver. I wonder if anybody studied Italian players' 1M-2C structure. I think their structure shld be pretty good.

[MesSer]

Italians doesn't go for science... They jump to game or slam and it's always right

[luke warm]

Quote

I am a bit worried 2C is overloaded. So my opinion is better to use 2C showing:
a) gf with natural suit
8+ -11- 3 card trump spt.
Showing via 2C enable opener to evaluate the game prospectus and hence stop in 2M or bid game. This is relatively simple and I really like it.


On the other hand, if 2c includes all gf hand, then there must be a captain and info receiver. I wonder if anybody studied Italian players' 1M-2C structure. I think their structure shld be pretty good.

i don't see 2C as played by ben as being overloaded at all.. it just shows a good to limit 3 card raise, a flat hand a`la jordan 2nt, or a gf in clubs.. it's relatively easy for declarer to find out which hand is held, assuming he cares

[Trpltrbl]

More food for Thought. Personally I like the Duboin-Bocchi way the best. It seems not all that complicated and it must work since their record proves that. Only problem y mite run into is that y need to stick with very few pd's. But if that's what r planning on doing y mite as well go into Meckwell precision or keylime. Thing I think is a waste of time is people trying to play part of a system and after the rebid kinda gamble their way in a game. Either play the system or don't, beating up on little old ladies with a system they a scared of is sick >
Come and get me ;D I will be ready hehehe