[kenberg]

Scoring: MP

---

You are South, it's mps, you have played with this partner once before and have no complaints, it's acbl tourney level.


The bidding begins on your right:

P P 1C 1S
P ?




You don't have a lot of agreements but 2C by a passed hand would be taken as spade support and invitational values, and either 1 or 2 NT would be taken as natural and constructive. 2S would be a raise (what else) and 3S would be preemptive.


Choose your poison.

A slight warning: I'll show you the hands later, after which it may still not be clear which call is best. So if you are hoping for clear-cut answers here you may be disappointed.

As always, I appreciate all responses

Ken

[barmar]

I bid 2♣. I wish my shape were better and I weren't sitting under the opening bidder, but I don't know if I'll get another chance to show an 11 count. My clubs aren't good enough for a NT bid.

[mikeh]

1N for me

shows the point count, the stopper, and the shape. And, since my hand contributes no ruffing value, there is a good chance it makes as many tricks in nt as in ♠. Finally, 1N keeps open playing in either ♠ or nt or (even) ♥, while a ♠ raise effectively traps us into that suit.

[kenrexford]

2NT by a passed hand should be taken as a contructive spade raise, balanced, with a club stopper, and about 10-11 HCP's. I have that.

[FrancesHinden]

2C for me.

Funnily enough, I would say that having showing spade support we can still finish in NT (admittedly not in 1NT) but that if I bid NT now, partner will never believe we have three card spade support.

If I'm going to bid 1NT with 3-card support, which in general I don't do, I want a double stop in their suit.

I'm not surprised there's no clear answer, because I don't feel very strongly about this anyway.

(p.s. I don't really make 4-card overcalls. If partner is a keen 4-card overcaller, that makes 1NT more tempting)

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on Aug 2 2006, 10:39 AM, said:

2NT by a passed hand should be taken as a contructive spade raise, balanced, with a club stopper, and about 10-11 HCP's.  I have that.

I just don't see this as playable. We are white v red; 1♠ over 1♣ is an overcall that good players stretch to make, since it is so destructive of the opposition's bidding space. I'd overcall 1♠, very happily, on KQJx xx Axxx xxx, and with KQJxx xxx Qxx xx... these are not hands that play well opposite the unnecessary jump to 2N on 10xx and a 3433 shape

And the fact that rho was silent does nothing to change the possibility of this type of overcall: you have a lot of hcp and lho is relatively unlimited, plus rho, if he lacks 4+♥ and 4+♣ will be passing 1♠ with many 6 or 7 counts.

[neilkaz]

I somewhat prefer 1NT to 2C since I have a flat 11 count with weakish 3 card spade support and much of my hand maybe offside. 1NT can easily buy this auction, and I really want the lead to me and think 1NT may be easier than 2S if PD's overcall is a minimum as I have no likely ruffing value and 1C may be from a shortish suit.

If I had a likely doublestop in C I'd be much more sure of my 1NT bid, but I still prefer it to 2C or 2S.

.. neilkaz ..

[SoTired]

I think both 1N and 2S are playable. I lean toward 1N because I don't have to downgrade so much. Normally, I'd bid 2C with 11 and 3-card support, but I downgrade this hand with the 2 KJ's and ♣K in front of the opener and weak trump support.

2N for a good spade raise? That won't work. My 1-level overcalls are any 5 cards and any 8 hcp like Jxxxx Axx xx QJx

[kenberg]

As promised,here are the hands:

---

As you can see, partner had full values for her jump to 4S over my 2C. Further, she has the ace of clubs so my king is not blown away at trick 1. Looking at all four hands, you can cetainly make 10 tricks, and some made 11. I think there is no stopping the 11 tricks if someone plays for it, but it seems most would settle for 10 and feel lucky to get it. It seems to make just as many in NT.

However. Looking only at the NS hands on a club lead, I doubt many people would place a heavy bet on the contract coming in. 3N is hardly clearcut either but perhaps has a better play.

I considered 2C and 1N, but not 2S. Briefly I considerd 2NT but then I came to my senses. I chose 2C but I wasn't sure then and I am not sure now. Realistically it appears to me that it will be hard to stop short of game. If I bid 1N it seems to me that partner might well raise to 2 and then I probably bid 3. We do have 26 highs between us and a fit.

As to the play, it seems to me that you need to place the Q of hearts in the E hand in order that there be a chance, and then the opening bid places the Q of diamonds in the W hand. And so it was.

Very good players responded to this and held divergent views. Thanks, and I am not declaring a winner.

Ken

[kenrexford]

The objections to the 2NT call seem to hit squarely on theory for opposite-passed-hand white-on-red overcalling. The objectors would overcall junk because of the colors and partner's initial pass, apparently.

I am more and more convinced that this theory is unsound. If you have reason to bid in this auction, it must be to preempt or to suggest a lead. Suggestion of a lead is counter-productive with a simple 1♠ overcall, as it transfers the lead back to you when Responder makes a takeout double. If preemption is the goal, jump to 2♠. If you are not good enough to jump to 2♠, even aggressively, then pass.

Why? Otherwise it seems to sacrifice sound bidding toward reasonably likely games. If sound overcalls are used here, we will have a situation where a sound hand follows a sound hand, which is good for us playing tight, less than traditional values, games. If the opening was third seat, the need for sound, rational auctions is increased, as the opening might be "the overcall" for lead-direction.

Thus, my preference for 2NT is based upon a predisposition to not overcall at the one-level opposite a passed hand without sound values. Assuming that set of parameters, more logical bidding is enabled (like, showing your exact hand). Without that agreement, strange hedge bids are required, with teh resulting problem raised by this post.

After 2NT, of course, partner has a simple 3NT call.

[kenrexford]

Never mind on the play issue. LOL

[pclayton]

1N for me, although I can live with 2♣. Even if I try 2♣, I think pard should try to angle for 3N; perhaps via 3♣.

West has a hand not everyone would open. At other tables I can see most of the field getting to 3N with either a 1N opening by north or a 3N rebid after a 3 card limit raise.

[pigpenz]

i had no problem with this one, i opened the other hand and ended up in 3nt when i rebid 1nt over partners one spade call. Granted the opening isnt great but then is matchpoints real bridge. I was swayed by the texture of the diamond suit KJ10.

[rbforster]

Put me down for 2♣. 1NT is tempting with all my K's, but I think my fit + values make this a little pessimistic.

[kenberg]

Hi Pig.

It was interesting to see the wide variety of auctions on this hand. Virtually everyone ended in either 3N or 4S, not surprising with 26 highs and a 5-3 spade fit. The routes varied greatly. Some opened my hand, some did not but bid 2NT after the spade overcall, some at the other extreme raised 1S to 2S and then raised 3S to 4. Many bid 2C as I did. Someone opened my hand with a weak NT. And so on. The top scorers were 4S making 5. This came about because of a heart lead, although a daring declarer can make 5 I think against any defense. In spades yes, and I think in NT also. Some no-trumpers made 4, but none made 5.

Myself, I don't open on hands like this and I prefer that partner doesn't either but we all have our own approaches.

Thinking over all the comments, I still think I will probably bid 2C next time around, but several people seem to think it's close between 2C and 1N. I agree. I won't be opening this hand in second position tho.

[bid_em_up]

Put me down with the 1N bidders also.

[jikl]

I would have been in the 1NT camp also.

Sean

[P_Marlowe]

2C.

I am a passed hand, so partner wont get
excited.
The shape gets compensated by the high
card value (and the Kings), ... and I am
passed hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe