[helene_t]

1♣-1♠
2♣-2♦*
2♥??

*2♦ can presumably be meant as a generic force, allthough it's natural, in principle. We do not have any specific agreements about this.

[Walddk]

I don't think there is a standard agreement regarding 4th suit by opener. In our textbook we have it defined as:

"4th suit by opener is always on the third round of bidding where opener already has limited his hand. It shows a maximum within that range with no descriptive bid available and therefore no clear direction".

Example:

♠ A
♥ 1054
♦ K84
♣ AQJ843

1♣ - 1♠
2♣ - 2♦
2♥

"Nothing more to add for now, but I have a maximum for my 2♣ rebid. I do not have as much as a doubleton honour in spades, no certain heart stopper and no 4-card support for responder's second suit".

I am sure that others have a different agreement. Do not venture it with a pick-up partner or in an indy.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with Roland.

I have noticed on other threads that I usually agree with Roland on 4SF sequences, and that we are often at odds with many American posters.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

assuming 2D natural,
2H is 4th suit, i.e asking for heart stopper,
und in effect opener has max. for his bidding
and a hand with no clear direction.

assuming 2D is NMF / ,
2H is natural and min., denying 3 card spade
support

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Miron]

The problem is the 2♦ bid.
If 2♦ was natural, then 2♥ ask for heart stopper. Usually it is without 3♠ and 4♦, thus 2236 or 2326 or longer ♣ (2434, 2335 are nt rebid) .

If 2♦ was forsing, then depends on your agreement. 2♥ in some of them is 3♥, in some of them natural 4♥...

If no clear agreement: I would await, that partner knows we have some bidding problems and he is trying to find heart stopper for 3NT with wide range of shapes.

[Free]

I would rather say 5♥ than 4♥...

[awm]

Many people over here (in the US) use 2♦ as some kind of artificial force in this auction. Some people call it new minor force, although Bourke relay might be a more accurate name (and more thorough treatment). Another reasonable possibility is playing transfers in this auction.

In any case, assuming your agreement is "2♦ is natural and forcing, but can occasionally be faked with an awkward hand needing to create a force" and that 2♥ would be natural and forcing by responder, then I agree with Roland that 2♥ should be just a punt.

If 2♦ is just an artificial force and 2♥ would be non-forcing by responder, then opener's 2♥ should be natural.

[mikeh]

I am not an American, but I am a North American, so I suspect that accounts for my divergence of view from Roland and Frances here

More importantly, the sequence 1♣ 1M 2♣ 2♦ should always be discussed int a serious partnership.

I like 1♣ 1♠ 2♣ 2♥ to be natural and non-forcing: we all have horrors with Axxxx Kxxxx xx x on this auction, and dread finding partner with x AJxx Ax KQxxxx... a hand not good enough for a reverse and here we are playing in 2♣ because the responding hand is not strong enough for a forcing 2♥... if you feel that either hand is too strong for the problem sequence, tweak it down enough to meet your requirements.

In turn, we still need a force over 2♣, so I (and many others have invented this independently or have read it elsewhere) use 2♦ as an artificial one-round force.... to which 2♥ by opener shows 4♥s.

[HeartA]

4♥s. With Roland's hand, I would rebid 3♣.

[mike777]

If you are playing reverse flannery, 1 minor =2h for weakish 4+h and 5+s then

1c=1s
2c=2d=game force?

1c=1s
2c=2h would be natural and invite?

1c=1s
2c=3d=weak with long D and 4s?

that leaves you with the typical Walsh problem hand of 4 spades and longer D's and an invite hand.

[Winstonm]

I would assume natural with less hand than a reverse - I don't see this as a fourth suit question - fourth suit is used when you run out of forcing bids. If the 2D bid forced, how can opener reforce and why does he need to do so? But how else is he to bid with:

x, KJxx, Ax, KQ10xxx or in my styles even this: x, KJxx, Axx, KQ10xx.

[Double !]

agree with adam and mikeh (especially about need to discuss the meaning of a 2D rebid after rebid of 2C).
interpretation depends upon the meanings of 2D and of 2H rebids by responder.
With that as a premise, i selected that 2H shows 4 hearts.

DHL

[Walddk]

Winstonm, on Jul 20 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

But how else is he to bid with:

x, KJxx, Ax, KQ10xxx or in my styles even this: x, KJxx, Axx, KQ10xx.

Notrump. He has hearts stopped, no?

Roland

[Winstonm]

Walddk, on Jul 20 2006, 12:42 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 20 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

But how else is he to bid with:

x, KJxx, Ax, KQ10xxx or in my styles even this: x, KJxx, Axx, KQ10xx.

Notrump. He has hearts stopped, no?

Roland

I do not grock.

What is there in the auction that makes us believe partner has used third suit forcing with his 2D bid? Isn't it most likely he has something really strange like 4 or more diamonds? The one thing we have done by our 2C rebid is limit our hand - now after 2D we have the chance to pattern out - partner just might want to know out shape in case he has secondary club support and slam or a club game in mind.

For me, I'd bid 2N with xx, AKx, xx, KQxxxx - now I've shown the stopper and the shape.

But I guess the point is you and partner have to be on the same page - both methods are playable, it would seem.

[mike777]

Since 2D is game force for me 2H is going to show 4Hearts for me.

I rebid 3clubs with
A...Txx....Kxx...AQJxxx
or
x....xxx....Kxx....AQJxxx