[barmar]

Scoring: Total Points

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GIB is North, it opened 1♠ and I responded 1NT (forcing), the opponents were silent. GIB then rebid only 3♠! I couldn't see any way to show my excellent supporting hand at this point, and he was only inviting anyway, so I just raised to game.

The slam is practically cold, only losing to ♠QTxx off-side. Any idea how this should be bid in GIB's 2/1 system? Does this seem like a bug in GIB's bidding database, or just a hole in the system and a lack of creativity on the bot's part?

[EricK]

Isn't this just a well known hole in 2/1 in general?

If you have an invitational hand with a good suit and support you just haven't got the ability to show it all.

[whereagles]

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 06:04 PM, said:

Isn't this just a well known hole in 2/1 in general?

Yes.

People try to go around it by bidding a 3-card minor. Only this hand has no such minor!

[joshs]

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 01:04 PM, said:

Isn't this just a well known hole in 2/1 in general?

If you have an invitational hand with a good suit and support you just haven't got the ability to show it all.

I am not sure why you singled out 2/1? What exactly is opener suppossed to rebid after 1S-2H in standard american or acol? If he takes over and key cards, he can never figure out if he really belongs in spades or in NT on many hands. For instance if Responder had:
Qxx Kxxxx Ax Kxx there are 13 tricks in NT, but you will never get to 7N if opener bids rkc in hearts.

[EricK]

joshs, on Jul 13 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 01:04 PM, said:

Isn't this just a well known hole in 2/1 in general?

If you have an invitational hand with a good suit and support you just haven't got the ability to show it all.

I am not sure why you singled out 2/1? What exactly is opener suppossed to rebid after 1S-2H in standard american or acol? If he takes over and key cards, he can never figure out if he really belongs in spades or in NT on many hands. For instance if Responder had:
Qxx Kxxxx Ax Kxx there are 13 tricks in NT, but you will never get to 7N if opener bids rkc in hearts.

After 1♠ 2♥ opener can rebid 3♠ which is forcing after a 2/1 in most systems. Then responder can cuebid 4♦ (I at least play this as a cuebid rather than natural, I suppose some might play it the other way).

[kenrexford]

The Opening was based upon quite a strong hand. Certainly a strong 2C comes to mind, with a positive in hearts response (whatever you play for that). It seems like 6H is the more likely end contract. Perhaps 2C-2H-3H-4D-4NT...?

[joshs]

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

joshs, on Jul 13 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 01:04 PM, said:

Isn't this just a well known hole in 2/1 in general?

If you have an invitational hand with a good suit and support you just haven't got the ability to show it all.

I am not sure why you singled out 2/1? What exactly is opener suppossed to rebid after 1S-2H in standard american or acol? If he takes over and key cards, he can never figure out if he really belongs in spades or in NT on many hands. For instance if Responder had:
Qxx Kxxxx Ax Kxx there are 13 tricks in NT, but you will never get to 7N if opener bids rkc in hearts.

After 1♠ 2♥ opener can rebid 3♠ which is forcing after a 2/1 in most systems. Then responder can cuebid 4♦ (I at least play this as a cuebid rather than natural, I suppose some might play it the other way).

The 3S bid pretty much gives up on hearts. Suppose responder had: x KQJxx Axxx Kxx or x KJxxx QJxx Kxx or something in between.

After 1S-2H-3S-3N opener bids what????
4H isn't forcing
4N is natural and not forcing

I don't think jumping to 3S solves many problems. A forcing 2S bid (e.g. SAYC) helps some and maybe a forcing 3H bid might also help some. Flexible hands with extra strength are problems in most bidding methods. This pair of hands are a good pair for a strong club since the game force actually occurs at the 1 level.

[mike777]

Goodnews is 4 level contracts may beat those going down in 7 and I do not think it is that easy to stay out of seven in SAYC or 2/1.

[inquiry]

Playing 2/1 you don't have to be stuck between a rock and a hard place on this hand.

Option one, treat your great heart suit, and three card support as game force. At imps/money bridge that is probably not a horrible idea. You will start this with 2H. North should not be greedy, a 3H raise, slam try will get the ball rolling, when you bid 4D (skipping past serious 3NT), blackwood is all partner needs to bid. Should you turn up with a surprizing 3S, he can rely on spade hook or the drop of the queen.

Or, over 3H, you can bid 3S, two suit agreement. Now a forcing 3NT (serious) will gget the 4D cue-bid out of you, and partner will still go slamming.

The trick here is to play 3H in game forcing auction as strong.

The second option is to bid 1NT. Now, partners hand is surely good enough for a jump to 3S. At this point, you are interested in possible slam, so you bid 4D. This is 100% a cue bid, agreeing spades, and denying a club control. PArtenr will will probably take control with blackwood in the face of a fit and diamond ACE and the extra values you show with 4D (not 3NT would not be serious over the 3S jump as you have not agreed upon trumps). If you played gazilli there would be some other options.

[Limey_p]

The north hand is too strong for 3♠ surely, so we manufacture a jump shift in a minor, here 3♣. That's the way I read Barmar's complaint.

Then the auction can continue something like 3♠ - 4♦ - 4♥ - blackwood etc.

Andy

[EricK]

joshs, on Jul 13 2006, 08:56 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

joshs, on Jul 13 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 13 2006, 01:04 PM, said:

Isn't this just a well known hole in 2/1 in general?

If you have an invitational hand with a good suit and support you just haven't got the ability to show it all.

I am not sure why you singled out 2/1? What exactly is opener suppossed to rebid after 1S-2H in standard american or acol? If he takes over and key cards, he can never figure out if he really belongs in spades or in NT on many hands. For instance if Responder had:
Qxx Kxxxx Ax Kxx there are 13 tricks in NT, but you will never get to 7N if opener bids rkc in hearts.

After 1♠ 2♥ opener can rebid 3♠ which is forcing after a 2/1 in most systems. Then responder can cuebid 4♦ (I at least play this as a cuebid rather than natural, I suppose some might play it the other way).

The 3S bid pretty much gives up on hearts. Suppose responder had: x KQJxx Axxx Kxx or x KJxxx QJxx Kxx or something in between.

After 1S-2H-3S-3N opener bids what????
4H isn't forcing
4N is natural and not forcing

I don't think jumping to 3S solves many problems. A forcing 2S bid (e.g. SAYC) helps some and maybe a forcing 3H bid might also help some. Flexible hands with extra strength are problems in most bidding methods. This pair of hands are a good pair for a strong club since the game force actually occurs at the 1 level.

On the auction you give, I think 4NT is about right. The second hand passes. The first hand cue bids on the way to slam.

But I don't really want to get into this discussion. I am not saying that 2/1 is a bad system or has more flaws than other systems or anything like that. It is just that this is a flaw in 2/1. When opener is very strong and responder is invitational, the auction is much harder to get right in 2/1. Move an honour from opener's hand to responder's, and suddenly it is easier to get it right in 2/1.

[adhoc3]

1S---1NT
3S---5H

Without agreement, how would you take this? Hope pard take as agreeing spade and good side tricks. No idea on how would Mr. GIB think of it......

[neilkaz]

3S is an underbid with that monster that should guarantee GF vs thing that can bid 1NT.

All is not lost as after the nicely invitational 3S, how can it hurt to Q bid 4D, showing the ace and a max for 1NT and spade support and not a D sign off or long D's probing for 5D, at least how I play it.

Even if opener is confused he can Q 4H with his hugeness and then it is party time.

The responding hand is about 1 point light of a GF 2H for me, but I can see where that may be best and it is very dangerous to not agree with inquiry when it comes to 2/1

[whereagles]

I think this hand is a clear example of why some systems have strong twos. In sayc or 2/1 a 2♣ opener is a serious possibility. Especially since you don't have a 3 card minor to jump-shift to.

[barmar]

I'm not sure that hand really qualifies for a 2♣ opener. It has 5-1/2 losers, and a common criterion for a strong 2 opening is 3-4 losers or 22+ HCP balanced.

[luke warm]

this is one of those hands i was taught to rebid 4♠, showing 6 pcs and 19-21 points.... maybe not very efficient, but at least it's descriptive

[SoTired]

Looking at both hands, I'd want to be in 6S. The fact that spades break 4-0 offside is irrelvant. Why would I want to be in an 8-card heart fit when a 9-card spade fit is available? A club lead sets 6H on normal breaks when 6S would be cold. I think bemoaning the ability to get to 6H instead of 6S is "resulting" too much.

I tend to stretch to open 2C with a single spade suit, but think this hand is lite.

In the auction 1S 1NTF 3S, I play that a new suit by responder is q-bid showing an original 3-card LR.

I think opener is too strong for a 3S rebid. Either a 4S rebid or a 3C j/s is indicated. If opener rebids 4S, responder will have no problem bidding 6S. If opener rebids 3C, responder will bid 3S and again, 6S will be reached.

I don't think this hand is that difficult to bid.

[mikestar]

This hand is clear evidence of the power of paradox responses to 2♣ as Ben advocates. Playing this, 2♣ is a no brainer on this hand, as it can get out in 2♠ opposite a worthless responding hand. No need to open 1♠ and risk an under strength 3♠, a space-stealing 4♠, or a manufactured JS on a doubleton.

[hrothgar]

You post raises two distinct questions:

2. What is the best strategy in an established partnership with reasonable tools available.

I'd open 1♠ and rebid 3♣ over 1NT

1. What is the best strategy partnering GIB (or, for that matter in an Indy opposite either a "private" or "expert" partner)

Here, I'd open 2N

[barmar]

SoTired, on Jul 14 2006, 11:07 AM, said:

In the auction 1S 1NTF 3S, I play that a new suit by responder is q-bid showing an original 3-card LR.

That was what I wanted to do at the time, but unfortunately that's not GIB's understanding. Its system is woefully lacking in cue bidding -- I guess that's why it likes to blast to slam so much.