[P_Marlowe]

joshs, on Jul 11 2006, 11:05 AM, said:

I have a strong opinion on this hand. You want to suggest 3N without committing yourself to playing 3N (4H might be right instead. In fact 4S or 5C might even be right.). The way you do that is you bid 3D and then 3N if you are still not sure that something else is better. This sequence shows something in diamonds, but doubt about 3N. <snip>

That depends a bid on the meaning
of 3D.
For me 3D is 4th suit, i.e. bidding
3D followed by 3NT shows slam
interest,
why ask partner after a stopper, if one
hold one yourself.
Hence no option for me.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[inquiry]

mikeh, on Jul 11 2006, 12:20 PM, said:

Ben, in most 2/1 methods, the 2♠ is not a reverse... it shows no values beyond that required for a game force... it merely patterns out.

While I have long ago given up on 1H-2m-2S doing anything but patterning out, I have found the following auction to be problematic expansion of that "concession"...

1H - 2m
2H - 2S

if 2S does not show extra values. The reason is that opener's 2H just shows an opening bid, not an extra card in hearts, and can be quite a lot extra or dead minimum. One thing for sure, is opener lacks 4S (see the first sentence). This goes along with the modern theory that in a GF situation use fast arrival, bid good hands slow and bad hands fast. Thus, as you point out the general rule is that reverse just show shape, not promise extra values.

But this one is problematic. If you think spades are now out of the picture (parnter didn't bid 2S to show 4 -- of course 4-3 fit might be best on some hands), why bid them? Lets look at some auctions...

1H-2m
2H-2S
any-3H, how many in the other minor? Is 3H real support? Did responder pattern out to show a singleton in other minor and 3 card support? Would 3 card support start earlier? Which is stronger, 1H-2m-2H-3H or the above auction.

The hand shown here, suggest 2S followed by heart support fails to show distribution. But just a lost way. You have an auction where openers 3m raise (over 2S) probably denies real support, opener 3H rebid is not showing real support and oddly contains a stopper in the unbid suit.

So for these hands, I have (at least in my own mind) divided the 2S bid into showing something extra with 46 distribution. Otherwise I start with 1S. This has, for me solved a number of problem. The first is when I do reverse, it clues the 1H opener in on the extra values. This eases the auction at a time when opener might be sitting on undisclosed extra values. Second, it demystifies the subsequence delayed raise. It is always shape showing. Third, wiht hand like this (modest GF values, 5C, 4S), it allows me to respond 1S and partner will make a more descriptive rebid than the generic 2H (tell me more) bid I got here.

Finally, it allows me to show real club values when I bid like this rather than a five card suit to the 8 or ten. So while the general dogma is what you espouse, I think in this case, 2S has to show better shape (5431, 6421) or better values than this hand has. Otherwise start with a 1S response. This frees up the 3H/3D bid over partner riase or 2NT to show the 5431 hands.

[han]

I do not treat 2S as a reverse, or even as showing extra values. Hence I don't mind the bidding so far. I voted 3H before reading the comments, but Josh made me think that 3D might be the right call.

[awm]

I like 3♥ here. The main question is what the difference is between 3♦ and 3♥.

I agree that 3♦ is a temporizing bid, which doesn't particularly suggest diamonds and asks opener to do something intelligent. I also think that 3♥ shows only doubleton, because with three hearts it would be normal to raise a round earlier.

Suppose opener has six mediocre hearts and a diamond card. Something like:

x
KJ9xxx
AJx
Kxx

Over 3♦, should he bid 3♥ or 3NT? I'd expect 3NT, as he has already bid the hearts twice and received no encouragement from partner, and I view 3♦ as primarily a stopper-ask. Over 3♥, this is a clear 4♥ bid (but with a diamond card and only five hearts 3NT would be fairly normal).

[joshs]

inquiry, on Jul 11 2006, 12:06 PM, said:

Stephen Tu, on Jul 11 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

Nowhere in the neighborhood?  At most it is a jack away.  Yes, one can bid 1s and GF later, but ...
- you won't ever be able to show longer club later, partner with 4 clubs will never believe 9 cd fit.  Yes your clubs are terrible but sometimes partner has AKJ.
- on some auctions partner will be led to believe you have 5+ sp.
- sometimes you lose club suit entirely.  Partner 0-5-4-4, if his style is to rebid 2d ...

The "isn't in the neighboorhood" comment wasn't for the 2♣ bid, it is the responder reverse holding that horrible hand (for a reverse (2C followed by 2S). I have no qualms forcing to game within a 2/1 context with this hand. I do have problems reversing then supporting heart or cue-bdding diamonds or "retreating" to 3NT after partner support clubs. The reason is he will have QUITE A DIFFERENT view of my values. I suspect he will bid on with all but the most minimum values.

So you can bid 2C and give up on spades if partner rebid 2H, that is fine, but I can not see 2C followed by a reverse. If partner is 0544 and rebids 2D (better diamonds), then I suspect you will still do ok with either a 2NT (not GF) or 3NT rebid. Over 2NT, opener with a void will surely pattern out, and over 3NT where you didn't check back, proabably patterns out as well.

Ahh I see. In Ben's Lexicon The Cheapist Bid is called a reverse and shows a huge hand, while a space consuming bid shows a lessor hand....

[Winstonm]

So much of this depends on methods. Some use the major rebid to guarantee a 6-card or longer suit, which would certainly make this hand easier; however, it does become troublesome when you are dealt xxx, AKJxx, xxx, Ax and partner bids
2C.

If 2H does not show 6, then in the auction shown it makes sense to have 3H show doubleton honor support and have 3D deny that support. This would allow opener to bid 3N with something decent in diamonds yet allow a rebid of 3H on 5 very good hearts suggesting a suit playable opposite xx or even 3S with honor-third to suggest 3N might be in question. In my mind 3D should be the "catchall" bid that leaves open all possible contracts.

[whereagles]

After a 2/1, I believe "patterning out" is technically inferior. It is true that shape should come first, and strength later. But relying on fast arrival to tell a 11 hcp hand from a 20 hcp one is not precise enough. It is, in my opinion, necessary to pattern out at the same time you say something about strength. This implies retaining at least part of the sayc reverse and jump shift structure.

Dumping all the strength showing scheme into fast arrival is what gives 2/1 a bad name.