[kfgauss]

You pick up, 4th seat red vs white, imps:

A1083 9864 8 KQJ10.

1D* 1S X 2D
X** P P ?

*: precision, 2+

**: you ask and get the explanation "penalty"

What now?

[Edit: regarding any questions, your partner is a good player, but you have no agreements.]

[Echognome]

Although the penalty double doesn't scare me in any way, I would need to know what partner's pass vs 2♠ bid means.

I'm assuming my 2♦ bid showed a good raise to 3. I have a touch better than a minimum sound raise (4th trump, outside singleton), but I don't see going past part-score unless partner wants to. Thus I need to know if 2♠ or pass is weaker by partner. Assuming pass is weaker (or no agreement where partner is likely to pass to show weakness), then I simply bid 2♠. If 2♠ is weaker then I make another move. I think the interesting call is XX although I would not perpetrate it unless I had a partner that was very well in tune.

[Impact]

Interesting as both for the lead and further bidding I might have been tempted to try a fit-jump of 3C given my suit quality there and 4thsS together with shortage in D. Against a "utility" opening a la precision, it is even more useful to get in with suit fit and let them guess so that would have been my choice.

As the auction has actually proceeded,

If my 2D bid promised support for S and was forcing to 2S, I would take overcaller's pass as "not awful for the overcall" ie at least some positive move whereas his reversion to 2S would have been minimum.

However, if the 2D could have concealed a myriad ofhands - including those without S support, his pass might be necessary to allow description of my hand.

These matters are for agreement. I play Rubens advances - and hence the issue of support is clarified immediately....

I am tempted now to bid 3D virtually regardless - as that should clue him in on my shortage (by contrast a redouble he might interpret XX as more scattered general strength).
Regards

[jdeegan]

3♠ with a reliable partner. 3♦ would be the all purpose game force. 2♠ would be invitational with cards, My hand as a playing hand is a little better than that, so 3♠ is just right. My premise is that partner's vul overcall can't be too awful. With something like:

♠ KQJxx
♥ KJ9
♦ xxx
♣ xx

he will consider he has a minnie and pass my 3♠ call. If not, maybe they will misdefend and let my feckless partner make four. Note that with a little help from some distribution, they might make 9 or 10 tricks in ♦.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

do I believe the explanation?

No, 1D was certainly limited to ???,
we have a 9 card fit in spades, and
they know about the 8 card fit
(?!: Hopefully you have alerted 2D),
opener has diamonds and thats it.

I bid 3S, inv. to game, and preventing
them to enter the auction cheaply,
they will have a diamond fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[inquiry]

If you trust partner, bid 4♠. Pass over 2Dx should show "extras", with all weak overcalls he would bid 2♠ directly over the double. So all the weak holdings are gone. You are red, it is imps, certainly "only inviting" is not good enough.

[joshs]

I would have made a fit jump in clubs with this hand at my first bid despite having one less card there than promised. Having not done that, this is only worth 3S now.

[mikeh]

3♠ is the kind of bid one makes in order to win a post-mortem: 4♠ is the kind of bid one makes if one wants to win imps.

Now, I am assuming (and this may be foolhardy) that partner's pass showed a non-minimum 1♠ overcall.

Add to this that he is vulnerable and that it seems probable both that he has some ♦ length (no 3♦ on your left or on your right) and few, if any, values in the suit and it becomes exceedingly difficult to come up with hands on which 4♠ has no decent play.

KQxxx Kx xxx xxx and we have a good shot at game and he has a better hand than that if my assumption about the meaning of his pass is correct.

KQxxx AQx xxx xx and game is a great spot, yet he can argue (after you score +170 or +200) that he showed that good a hand by passing 2♦ x'd... and who could argue with him?

When you KNOW that game is going to be playable, red at imps, don't pussyfoot around. Had LHO not doubled 2♦, and partner had bid 2♠, you'd have bid 3♠. Had partner made a stronger bid than 2♠, you'd have forced to game. That's what has happened here. Bid accordingly.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Jul 11 2006, 04:26 PM, said:

3♠ is the kind of bid one makes in order to win a post-mortem: 4♠ is the kind of bid one makes if one wants to win imps.

I kinda agree, though I'd prefer 3♦ if I knew pard would take that as a singleton.

[hatchett]

I agree, pass by partner should show better than a minimum. 4♠ is clear now, any bid now that lets partner out below game risks loses a load of IMPs.

[han]

I like the direct 3♣ suggestion a lot. I can't recall ever having done this on a 4-4, but here it seems the most descriptive bid. Now I would assume that pass showed more than a minimum, and the double makes my hand look better too. 4♠ seems best, 3♣ and 3♦ might be right if you would be sure that partner would understand (which certainly isn't the case here) and 3♠ gives partner a pure guess.

[bid_em_up]

Since, in my partnerships, a vulnerable overcall is made on values (almost opening hand, if not full opening), 4S is clear at this point. I am still inclined to bid 4S even without this agreement.

[Double !]

I, too, like an initial 3-club response (or 2NT if that is 4-card support limit+ raise): 3C shows where your values are. But, a question.
What would an immediate 3 diamond response have shown? Would be perfect if it showed an invitational splinter.

DHL

[hatchett]

Quote

What would an immediate 3 diamond response have shown?

I usually play a jump cue as a mixed raise, so this hand would be far to strong.

[kfgauss]

The story on this hand is that I jumped to 4♠, liking my diamond shortness given lefty's now real diamonds and thinking partner probably has a bit extra for his pass.

It turned out partner had Qxxxxx xxx KJx x and they doubled, taking the first five tricks plus the ♠K still to come. (Note to protect my partner: he'd simply decided to take some very swingy/experimental actions, starting with this board. You needn't comment on his bidding.)

The story doesn't mean much, and mostly I was wondering how my hand evaluation was opposite a real overcall.

The other interesting point, though, is that I'm not so sure pass should promise values in retrospect. I like to play that when we've found a fit, pass shows extras, but when we haven't found a fit (more clear in the auction 1D 1S P 2D; X when playing NF advances), I think pass should probably deny much to say and bidding should be descriptive and show mild extras at least. Any opinions?

Andy

[neilkaz]

I bid 3S. I don't want to hang PD for overcalling aggressively at the 1 level, and I don't believe that vulnerablity should have any more than a small effect on 1 level overcalls. I think I have a hand near the top of the invitational range, but not a GF vs a minimal (normal O/C).

However, overcalling with the hand given is just asking for trouble and ignoring the fact that you have an intelligent PD.

Also, PD should bid 2S over the D double, which also takes away 2H from the opps, and should show that he has a minimal overcall, and isn't interested in hearing a game try. If your 2D can be something other than spade support, ie a good hand unsure of the best likely game (opposite a fair O/C rather than this rubbish), then 2S warns of weakness and should show 6 spades unsuited for a direct 2S WJO.

Others play pass shows PD's min (OK sub-min). Anyhow, you need to discuss this and standardize this with your PD's, since overcalls, especially light ones can lead to strong competition from the opps, and the less guessing you do at high levels, the better off you are.

Just my opinion. .. neilkaz ..

[Free]

Pass shows extra's, but not enough to bid game himself. Now we have enough (why didn't I start with a 2NT raise?) to bid 4♠.

[Double !]

I would appreciate further clarification regarding which bid shows a better hand on this auction (a pass vs. 2S when P cues to show limit raise or better and lho doubles) and how good is "better"?. I honestly admit that, while I know what I play, I don't know what is the more commonly accepted differentiation between the two possible actions. In addition, how do you all play a 3-spade bid by the 1 spade bidder after you cue and lho Xs?
And, what would a XX by partner mean to you?

TIA

DHL

[inquiry]

Double !, on Jul 12 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

I would appreciate further clarification regarding which bid shows a better hand on this auction (a pass vs. 2S when P cues to show limit raise or better and lho doubles) and how good is "better"?. I honestly admit that, while I know what I play, I don't know what is the more commonly accepted differentiation between the two possible actions. In addition, how do you all play a 3-spade bid by the 1 spade bidder after you cue and lho Xs?
And, what would a XX by partner mean to you?

TIA

DHL

If partners cue shows support, principle of fast arrival applies. If you are weak, you have to bid 2S. The weaker, the more assuredly you bid it. If you are strong enough to force to game you can do something dramatic. If you have a nice, sound overcall, you can pass. A pass here shows you had your values for your bid. The hand shown for overcaller in this thread is not a 1S overcall, and even if it was, over the double, he should bid 2S willy nilly, rather than offer any encouragement with a pass.

As for which is stronger, pass or some bid other than 2S it is a matter of agreement. I like pass to be just sound overcall (real). I like bid below game at the same level to be the same but with values in bid suit.

Maybe time to revisit Robson/Segal again.

[civill]

pass;
PD's ♦suit is good,but PD's hand/HCPs are not good enough for a game.