[pclayton]

I will also try 6♣. I'm not surprised if its -1, or even worse.

I also recognize that pard is under a lot of pressure to bid with short (likely void) in spades. He probably won't like my hand; my 5 trump aren't that much of a help and I have a wasted king and no stiffs.

[HeartA]

I admit it's a tough decision for me. If I want a swing, I might bid 6C. If I want to be prudent, I would double.

[hatchett]

Quote

1) Partner has no right to expect me to have anything, 4♠ could have been bid to make. I am not marked with any values whatsoever.

I just don't believe that is your approach to competing after the opponents open with a pre-empt and it raised to game. You will strain to act with shortage in their suit. Bidding has several ways to win, it makes, it's a good save against their making game, it pushes them a level higher etc. Sure partner acted at the 5 level here, so he has slightly more playing strength than 4 level. We don't even know whether he has a spade void, which every suggested hand seems to assume! I like double because some of the time I will reach slam when it's making and it's very likely that 5S will go for a reasonable penalty when we are making slam.

What do I know about the player on my right, is he an everyday random on a genuine expert who is likely to have an exceptional hand to bid 5S? To some extent this might affect my decision on the hand.

[jdonn]

hatchett, on Jun 22 2006, 07:07 AM, said:

Bidding has several ways to win, it makes, it's a good save against their making game, it pushes them a level higher etc.

You are applying all those arguments to partner, but don't they all apply to you on this round as well?

[hatchett]

Quote

You are applying all those arguments to partner, but don't they all apply to you on this round as well?

You know full well those arguments apply to the person making to the initial action.

if the bidding is

1H P 2H P
P 2S 3H ?

do we bid 3S very often. No we credit partner for his two spade call

if the bidding is

1H P 4H 4S
5H ?

do we bid 5S very often. Answer No.

If RHO hadn't bid 5S was anyone seriously considering 6C here?

[jdonn]

You stated three reasons partner would potentially stretch to bid 5♣.

it makes
it's a good save against their making game
it pushes them higher

Exactly which of those possibilities don't apply to us on this round?

Your example auction of
1H P 2H P
P 2S P ?
has nothing to do with anything, this discussion is about taking a bid or not over a bid by the opponents.

Your second example
1H P 4H 4S
5H ?
You ask if we bid 5♠ very often and the answer is of course not. But do we have 5 card support very often?

[hatchett]

Quote

Exactly which of those possibilities don't apply to us on this round?

it makes....double gets you there sometimes anyway



it's a good save against their making game....the chance of their game making must be very low....


it pushes them higher....possible if LHO has been snorting the same drugs as RHO before the session. That's why I asked what the standard of oppoents was. The superficial evidence is that they aren't very good. If 2S is a normal weak two, 5S is undisciplined. Once you have decided your hand is a weak 2 that is that, unless partner invites you to make a decision. Of course it was impossible for RHO that he partner held AJxxx club.




Out of interest were you going to bid 6C if RHO passed?

[jdonn]

hatchett, on Jun 22 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

it makes....double gets you there sometimes anyway

it's a good save against their making game....the chance of their game making must be very low....

it pushes them higher....possible if LHO has been snorting the same drugs as RHO before the session.  That's why I asked what the standard of oppoents was.   The superficial evidence is that they aren't very good.  If 2S is a normal weak two, 5S is undisciplined.  Once you have decided your hand is a weak 2 that is that, unless partner invites you to make a decision.  Of course it was impossible for RHO that he partner held AJxxx club.

Out of interest were you going to bid 6C if RHO passed?

The first point suggests you completely ignorred my original post. You aren't getting rich off 5♠ unless they are snorting those drugs you are referring to. 5♠ was a VERY unusual bid by a weak two bidder. I would say 500 is average for what we will get, with 200 and 800 both possible and anything else less likely.

The second, likewise. I would say they are making around 10-15% of the time. We are surely taking no club tricks, and the spade king for all we know may not be a trick.

As for the third, why shouldn't LHO want to take a cheap save vs our slam that could be making for all he knows?

---

It's true the standard of opponents matters a great deal, and I'm much less likely to want to bid vs bad opponents. But I don't look at 5♠ and say they must be terrible, it's a bridge problem and I solve it on the basis of opponents knowing what they are doing, meaning the 2 bidder has a very shapely hand, probably where he was planning on taking a second bid if his partner never bid.

I was not bidding 6♣ if RHO passed, but of course then the points about pushing them up and about having a good save are moot.

[keylime]

I bid six clubs, automatic.

1. I fear they may rack 5♠ for the clubs will be worthless.

2. On freak hands, it's best to declare not defend in my eyes.

3. Pard found a call at a high level. Pass is no longer an option from me.

[hatchett]

Yeah sure I can construct hands as well. Anyway you have to double on the East cards if you want to bid again.

Quote

The first point suggests you completely ignorred my original post.

I meant double gets you to 6C sometimes when it's right not that the penalty will be enormous. I play double can be pulled by an exceptional hand. It shows high cards and most probably some likelihood of a trump trick. Maybe you play double differently.

[jdonn]

I know anyone can construct hands where they could be right. I only did that because you made it sound like the opponents would have to be insane to save if I bid slam, and I am just trying to show that it could easily be right for them to do so. Of course it could also be wrong, more likely that it will be wrong in fact, but saving is certainly a plausible consideration for them.

I play double essentially as you do. Sorry I misunderstood what you meant on that one. I thought you meant the penalty from doubling gets you there, not that doubling lets partner bid it.