[arrows]

I had a nasty problem in a team game, both red
holding:
♠ K82
♥ QJ8
♦ 42
♣ AJ932

RHO opens a first seat 2♠ weak two, you pass,
LHO leaps to 4♠, and your partner comes in with 5♣,
RHO continues with 5♠,

1. What do you bid now?
2. What agreement do you have in your partnership in this kind of situation.

[mike777]

I guess partner has:

void...Axx..AKxx....KQTxxx

[P_Marlowe]

X.

If it makes to bad, but I wont go to 6 level,
and risk -1, when their contract would be -X as well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Miron]

Partner is (probably) void in spades. Hand as mentioned above 0346 or 0436, he has only ♣KQ so he has to have a lot of points outside clubs.

6♣ will probably make:
imho: partner cannot have ♠- ♥Kxx ♦Kxxx ♣KQxxxx
With one ace there is reasonable chance for 6♣, with 2 aces it should go.

5♠x:
We will make (if we have 6♣):
♠ 0-1
♥ (1) 2-3
♦ (2) 3-4
♣ 0 (someone will have a void)
That is (4)5-8 tricks for (1100)1400-2300.

This one is tricky. I'll bid 6♣ and double 6♠
If the opps will not bid (you know them, don't you):
If they are crazy or young double, otherwise 6♣.

[Free]

Double, preempter who bids again should be punished.

[hatchett]

Double. A long way off a 6♣ call when partner may have stretched to bid 5♣. Double here shows high cards, I expect partner to pass 90% of the time, but he is allowed to bid with a very offensive hand.

[whereagles]

I have just about what pard would normally expect from me, except for the extra club length. I don't think that is enough reason to bid 6♣, so double.

6♣ could easily make, though.

[lowerline]

arrows, on Jun 20 2006, 11:02 PM, said:

I had a nasty problem in a team game, both red
holding:
♠ K82
♥ QJ8
♦ 42
♣ AJ932

RHO opens a first seat 2♠ weak two, you pass,
LHO leaps to 4♠, and your  partner comes in with 5♣,
RHO continues with 5♠,

1. What do you bid now?
2. What agreement do you have in your partnership in this kind of situation.

This is though. The LOTT favors bidding 6♣ (assuming 22 trumps), but I don't trust the LOTT when there are that many trumps. However I can't imagine taking less than 10 tricks in a club contract...
Double is bad if 5♠ makes, but if 5♣ doesn't make the loss might not be that big. Double it is.

[SoTired]

X is obvious. Show partner that you have strength in spades. For SLAM, your only worthwhile card is the CA.

You have 4 red losers. Are you sure partner can cover 3 of the 4? Would partner bid the same with - xx AKQx KQxxxxx? 5S is likely down 3 while 6C does not make.

[jdonn]

Definitely 6♣. We have no idea who can make what. We do not have as many tricks on defense as everyone is giving us credit for, since obviously they have a LOT of shape. It will be wrong to bid more often than not, but when it's wrong it's sometimes only a little wrong (like both were down 1), but when it's right it's very very right.

Take one of the examples just posed for partner.

- xx AKQx KQxxxxx

Yes 5♠ and 6♣ are technically both down, but...
- Partner might have the jack or ten of diamonds and 6♣ makes on any lead but a heart. And why should you expect to get a heart lead?
- They might lead the ace of spades, now 6♣ makes.
- 5♠ is NOT down 3. When the opponents bid like this they have to be credited with a ton of shape!! Say the weak two bidder is 6250 (and he will probably be something like this or else why would he bid 5♠?) Now 5♠ goes down 1, but might even make if the ace of spades is with responder. And if it's with opener, then like I said you make 6♣ if he leads it.
- They might bid 6♠, in fact there is a very good chance of that. Are they really going to take the chance that partner doesnt have the diamond jack, or a singleton heart, and that 6♣ might make when they have cheap insurance? I in fact think if I bid 6♣ they will bid 6♠ about 1/4 to 1/3 of the time.
- Partner might have that hand with the heart king instead of the diamond king, now 6♣ probably makes.

At imp scoring, you can't just go around doubling the opponents at a high level without the slightest clue of what either side can make. In theory it will be right to double far more often than to bid, but the combined odds the opponents bid one more or make the wrong lead combine with the chances they they were making 5♠ or 6♣ was making, to make bidding a clear action in my mind.

Prior comments about the LOTT, having essentially what partner expects, partner stretching to bid 5♣, and having some obligation to punish a preempter that bids again are all nonsense.

Wow I sure got that off my chest Oh, and I expect bidding to work out very badly when we learn the actual hand.

[joshs]

6C. I am not trying for 7. Who knows if partner was bidding 5C to make, to save, or as a 2 way shot. What 5clubs shows is enough offense to believe that we are better off in 5C than defending 4S. If partner (without peaking at my hand) felt 5C was a good place to be, I am reasonably confident that 6C will not be hanging him. yes occasionally, both 5S and 6C will be down 1 (maybe even one of them down 2) since the SK is just a defensive value, but I have 5 card support and a good hand. At IMPS bidding 6C is totally clear since when you are wrong its lose 5 but when you are right its gain 12 or more....

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jun 21 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Prior comments (...) having essentially what partner expects, partner stretching to bid 5♣ (...) are all nonsense.

Will you be so kind as to explain why these two particular arguments are nonsense.

[Blofeld]

6♣. Sure, the opponents may have screwed up by bidding and raising, but that doesn't mean that we should be doubling. Perhaps RHO should have opened 3♠ and LHO would bid 5♠ and we'd never get a look in. It isn't clear what's making. Grand is possible, but the hand isn't good enough for 5NT. 6♣ is admittedly a guess, but it feels like the lesser risk to me.

[han]

6♣, I have little to add to the words of the Josh's and Owen.

I think the argument that we should be doubling because the opponents bid badly is very poor. No, the best way to punish the opponents is by getting a good score.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Jun 21 2006, 12:44 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 21 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Prior comments (...) having essentially what partner expects, partner stretching to bid 5♣ (...) are all nonsense.

Will you be so kind as to explain why these two particular arguments are nonsense.

1) Partner has no right to expect me to have anything, 4♠ could have been bid to make. I am not marked with any values whatsoever.

2) Combine 1) with the fact that we are vul, partner won't be jumping in on peanuts. You don't just bid on the 5 level vul on a prayer.

[Winstonm]

6C for me as well - could go down but unlikely. Worst case would be a hand such as: void, Axx, AQx, KQxxxxx and even here the diamond finesse could work.

[arrows]

nobody to address the 2nd question? that's more important, IMO.

What does Pass, double, 6C or 5NT show here?

[bid_em_up]

Pass = Your 5♣ bid didnt do anything for me, and I have nothing useful to say. What else could it mean? Last time I checked, pass = pass in this position (I dont consider this to be a forcing pass situation).

Double = If you have a real 5♣ bid (missing the A♣), then I would expect to beat 5♠ on my holdings (strictly penalty). If you were goofing around and taking flyer at a red/red sac, then we're probably intercoursely challenged again.

5N = My best guess would be pick a slam, and I have a bunch of red cards with a spade stop, some club tolerance along with more values than you are probably expecting me to have considering my original pass over 2S. I really have no clue what 5N would/should actually be.

6♣ = Cant tell who is making what. Willing to take our chances in 6♣. Hopefully it makes or opps bid 6♠.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jun 21 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jun 21 2006, 12:44 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 21 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Prior comments (...) having essentially what partner expects, partner stretching to bid 5♣ (...) are all nonsense.

Will you be so kind as to explain why these two particular arguments are nonsense.

1) Partner has no right to expect me to have anything, 4♠ could have been bid to make. I am not marked with any values whatsoever.

2) Combine 1) with the fact that we are vul, partner won't be jumping in on peanuts. You don't just bid on the 5 level vul on a prayer.

Well, ok. I don't fully agree, but I won't argue more

[joshs]

arrows, on Jun 21 2006, 01:55 PM, said:

nobody to address the 2nd question? that's more important, IMO.

What does Pass, double, 6C or 5NT show here?

Pass = I don't have anything. Its not forcing

x= cards. I still call it responsive and partner is allowed to pull with lots of shape, but at this level its pretty rare for partner to pull.

5N=I think its the only grand slam try available. I have no idea how to use it for pick a slam auctions when partner has shown a 1 suited hand (if he has a second suit, so be it, but he could have bid 4N and not 5C), no other suits are currently in play, I passed previously so I don't have a strong 2 suiter, and since clubs is the lowest denomination and there are no bids between 5N and 6C its hard to suggest any other strains without bypassing clubs. If I had 1552 shape and a 10-13 count I would just be xing and taking the money (but would be thrilled if partner bids over the x).

Grand slam auctions tend to be very conservative at this level. I define the grand slam try as "Bid a grand if you expected that you were making 5 when you bid 5. If you weren't sure, we might make 7, but don't bid it." This doesn't mean that you have 11 tricks in hand, just that you thought the 5C call was totally sound... The idea is to have a scheme that lets you occasionally bid a great grand without ever bidding a bad grand.

6C is of course, lets play 6C.