BBO Discussion Forums: Bermuda Bowl And The VuGraph - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Bermuda Bowl And The VuGraph

#1 User is offline   pbleighton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Joined: 2003-February-28

Posted 2003-November-15, 14:35

I have never used the VuGraph before.
I will let more knowledgeable people (and those who watched more of the match than I did) comment on the match itself. My personal observations as an intemediate watching these great players:
1) Boy, do I have a long way to go :)
2) Even experts guess wrong, and make obvious errors (not just the last board)
3) What a terrible end to a great event.
4) Thanks loads to Fred et al!

Peter
0

#2 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-November-15, 16:32

Vugraph's are great, and this BBO final match was unbelievable, as the score indicates: 1 imp difference. It was a shame it ended this way.

It is clear everyone makes mistakes, even the world very best players, as we saw here... they just make a whole lot less than all the rest of us.
--Ben--

#3 User is offline   JRG 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 346
  • Joined: 2003-February-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

Posted 2003-November-15, 17:12

I wouldn't call the last hand the one that won or lost the match. We have a natural tendency to do that, but there were lots of other boards.

I think the hand the Italians will remember is the one in which Duboin played 6S redoubled and went down one when he could have made it. Rodwell & Meckstroth played in 4S making an overtrick.

That was 12 IMPs.

Having said that, the last board was a pity. I'm sure Soloway will dream of it often, wishing he had led the 10 of hearts. All the players were tired by that time.
JRG
0

#4 User is offline   csdenmark 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,422
  • Joined: 2003-February-13

Posted 2003-November-15, 19:08

Quote

Vugraph's are great, and this BBO final match was unbelievable, as the score indicates: 1 imp difference. It was a shame it ended this way.

It is clear everyone makes mistakes, even the world very best players, as we saw here... they just make a whole lot less than all the rest of us.




You really think so Ben! I am not sure they make less faults than we do. I think we cannot recognize their mistakes simply because we dont know their systems. It is often said that modern bridge is based more on systems today than it was earlier. And those who have composed the best systems are therefore those who have the best chances to end on top.

Our Vugraph commentators often tells us they dont know the specific systems they commentate, so we have no real chance to look behind and discover what was bidden correct according to system and what was done mistakenly. - Chris Compton was the clear exception - he seems to have taken his time to study Meckwell Club.

If the players cannot do the mechanics right due to they are exhausted how can anyone expect they will be able to do the thinking and remembering right under same conditions? How to interpretate the catch-ups of the italians and the US's if not as the mental conditions for the players.
0

#5 User is offline   alansc 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 22
  • Joined: 2003-October-16

Posted 2003-November-15, 23:54

Does anyone know the 6Sxx hand?
0

#6 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-November-16, 09:11

Quote

Does anyone know the 6Sxx hand?

Board 22 - Dealer East - EW vul.

S A J 2
H 10 6
D A Q J 3 2
C Q 10 3
S 10 7 6 4 S
H K J 2 H 8 3
D 10 6 D K 8 7 5 4
C K 9 6 5 C A J 8 7 4 2
S K Q 9 8 5 3
H A Q 9 7 5 4
D 9
C


Closed Room
WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH
Hamman Bocchi Soloway Duboin
p 1S
p 2C! p 2H
p 2S p 3D
p 3H p 3S
p 4D p 4H
p 4S p 5C
p 5D d p
p r p 5H
p 6S d r

Play
1: W D10 DA D4 D9
2: N H6 H3 HA H2
3: S H4 HJ H10 H8
4: W HK SJ C8 H5
5: N SA C2 S3

6SXX by S, down 1, NS: -200
--Ben--

#7 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-November-17, 07:55

Quote

Quote


It is clear everyone makes mistakes, even the world very best players, as we saw here... they just make a whole lot less than all the rest of us.




You really think so Ben! I am not sure they make less faults than we do. I think we cannot recognize their mistakes simply because we dont know their systems.



Come on Claus, you can't really be serious that the top world class players make the same number of mistakes that the rest of us do?? Let me give you a proof that this is silly proposition.

First, I hope we can agree that winning bridge is a case of avoiding mistakes, that is, the team that makes the fewest blunders as a rule is the team that wins.

Second, that to get to the world championships, each team had to beat back challenges from 100's if not thousands of teams from their own country to try to win their local and then zonal championships (if necessary).

For a pair or a partnership to reach this level two times, given the number of people trying to unseat them, is an astounding accomplishment, and to get there, they have to, by definition defined earlier, make fewer mistakes than the others they ran over on the road to the bermuda bowl. When you add to that observation that the same pairs are constantly winning, time and time again to get to this level, there is only one conclusion. They play better (hence less mistakes) than the rest of us.

One commentator kept quoting Bob Hamman's statement about the world's best player makes mistakes, and the rest of us are even worse. This is certainly true.
--Ben--

#8 User is offline   csdenmark 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,422
  • Joined: 2003-February-13

Posted 2003-November-17, 11:05

I really am serious Ben - I assume the top pairs make the same number of blunders in 10 deals as we do. But certainly their mistakes are not of same nature as mine.

But that is not what counts. My aim is we cannot see their mistakes simply because we dont know their systems. To judge or discover a mistake means you need to have a really good knowledge of the alternatives. A mistake is to choose the wrong alternative in a restricted choice - and the system itself and nothing else - decides what is able to be right. Here a commentators analysis based on another system will often not be relevant.

Therefore I was very pleased to see that Chris Compton had a good knowledge of Meckwell Club system. I think this really was the first Vugraph we have seen some kind of analysis based on knowledge of that system - that means I assume he has a basis to judge the alternatives possible according to that system and not according to standard bidding in 2o1 or something else. I also noticed thal Allan Graves had some real knowledge of the system.

Please see my comment as a very welcome of qualified analysis based on the conditions the players acts according to. We also saw good analysises from the polish championships - but else we often need to be pleased with the comment that the Vugraph commentator have no knowledge of the system - but assume continuation to be standard(advanced of course) like.

If you disagree to above - please come up with something about the big swings we saw in both directions Italy vs. USA1.

I think we need more commentators who plays club systems themselves. I think Roland Wald ought to be thanked very much he has been able this time to find new commentators with that sort of skills and also a thank you to Alfred Conterno and Herve Lustman who both often gave explanations of artificial sequences late in the bidding sequences.

I would like to see I am wrong Ben!
0

#9 User is offline   luis 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,143
  • Joined: 2003-May-02
  • Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina

Posted 2003-November-17, 11:12

Quote

I really am serious Ben - I assume the top pairs make the same number of blunders in 10 deals as we do. But certainly their mistakes are not of same nature as mine.

But that is not what counts. My aim is we cannot see their mistakes simply because we dont know their systems. To judge or discover a mistake means you need to have a really good knowledge of the alternatives. A mistake is to choose the wrong alternative in a restricted choice - and the system itself and nothing else - decides what is able to be right. Here a commentators analysis based on another system will often not be relevant.

Therefore I was very pleased to see that Chris Compton had a good knowledge of Meckwell Club system. I think this really was the first Vugraph we have seen some kind of analysis based on knowledge of that system - that means I assume he has a basis to judge the alternatives possible according to that system and not according to standard bidding in 2o1 or something else. I also noticed thal Allan Graves had some real knowledge of the system.

Please see my comment as a very welcome of qualified analysis based on the conditions the players acts according to. We also saw good analysises from the polish championships - but else we often need to be pleased with the comment that the Vugraph commentator have no knowledge of the system - but assume continuation to be standard(advanced of course) like.

If you disagree to above - please come up with something about the big swings we saw in both directions Italy vs. USA1.

I think we need more commentators who plays club systems themselves. I think Roland Wald ought to be thanked very much he has been able this time to find new commentators with that sort of skills and also a thank you to Alfred Conterno and Herve Lustman who both often gave explanations of artificial sequences late in the bidding sequences.

I would like to see I am wrong Ben!


This is completely wrong, fix the contract in a thousand deals and with the same fixed defense a top player will produce a zillion more tricks per deal than you. Bridge is not only about systems and bidding, there's a lot of technique in the play, the defense and judgement and thats the area where top players distinct from the rest. This skills are mastered studying and practicing hard.
Even beginners can play a system as good as the one played by Meckwell, there's no skill in memorizing sequences.

Luis

Luis.
The legend of the black octogon.
0

#10 User is offline   Erkson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 258
  • Joined: 2003-May-24

Posted 2003-November-17, 11:44

Quote


...fix the contract in a thousand deals and with the same fixed defense a top player will produce a zillion more tricks per deal than you.

No doubt about it.

Quote


Bridge is not only about systems and bidding, there's a lot of technique in the play, the defense and judgement and thats the area where top players distinct from the rest. This skills are mastered studying and practicing hard.


No doubt about it.
But I observe that the number of deals where technique of play makes the difference is, IMO, low.
(technique of defense a bit more than declarer's technique).

Do you agree that most of the difference is made by the bidding ?

Quote


Even beginners can play a system as good as the one played by Meckwell, there's no skill in memorizing sequences.


Bidding is very difficult - and makes the difference- because it is not only a question of memory.

But I understood that Csdenmark's purpose was to tell that some commentators did know very well what they were talking about.
Sure.

Erkson
0

#11 User is offline   JRG 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 346
  • Joined: 2003-February-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

Posted 2003-November-17, 11:47

I agree to an extent with both Luis and Claus.

When I first started playing bridge, a group of us got very interested in the Italian bidding systems being used by the Blue Team (that is, the Roman Club and Neapolitan Club systems). We memorized the system (I was the worst, as I've always had a bad memory :-(

However, when there were systemic choices, we tended to be guessing. We did not have the experience and judgement of expert players. It is quite possible that Word Class players sometimes make inferior choices ("mistakes") as well, but I really doubt they do it as often in the bidding as us lesser players.

On the other hand, it is amazing how often they still arrive at the same contract as is bid in the other room, despite making choices that knowledgeable commentators point out as inferior (when they do know the bidding system).

I do agree, quite strongly, with Luis's comment about the play and defense of the hand. The World Class players squeeze more tricks out of a hand single-dummy than I can double-dummy :-(

An aside:

When we played the exotic systems, we were lucky to play at a bridge club where the general calibre was very high (sometimes playing against the likes of Eric Murray and Sammy Kehela) (which is probably why they allowed us to play the systems). So the "unusual systems" did not give the edge people tend to think (Note: we were playing them for fun, not to try to get an unfair advantage). For the most part people just bid their hands against us and doubled us when they thought we had overreached.
JRG
0

#12 User is offline   fred 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,597
  • Joined: 2003-February-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, USA

Posted 2003-November-17, 14:28

Quote


This is completely wrong, fix the contract in a thousand deals and with the same fixed defense a top player will produce a zillion more tricks per deal than you. Bridge is not only about systems and bidding, there's a lot of technique in the play, the defense and judgement and thats the area where top players distinct from the rest. This skills are mastered studying and practicing hard.
Even beginners can play a system as good as the one played by Meckwell, there's no skill in memorizing sequences.

Luis

Luis.


I agree with Luis 100%. Not only that, I don't think he goes far enough.
In my bridge career I don't recall playing ever playing a long match against
a good team in which "choice of system" made the difference between
winning and losing.

Even at the highest levels, for every swing caused by differences in
bidding systems, there are 10 or more swings caused by careless
errors, blindspots, bad judgment, and just pure luck.

I played a 160-board Bermuda Bowl Final in which Meckstroth-Rodwell
(who arguably have the best bidding system in the world) played
most of the boards. There were exactly 2 hands where their superior
methods earned them a swing. The happened to be 2 other hands
where screwing up their superior methods cost them. I am sure there
were at least 30 hands in which swings were caused due to the
factors mentioned in the above paragraph.

Bidding systems have never won anybody anything (other than
bidding contests maybe).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

PS I don't always agree with Luis - his characterizations of Hamman
and Avarelli (in another thread) are pretty close to sacrilege in my view,
but I am not going to get into that discussion - sorry.
0

#13 User is offline   csdenmark 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,422
  • Joined: 2003-February-13

Posted 2003-November-17, 15:06

Quote


Even at the highest levels, for every swing caused by differences in
bidding systems, there are 10 or more swings caused by careless
errors, blindspots, bad judgment, and just pure luck.



Very interesting - we never hear about such! I think good knowledge of the system concerned is needed to discover such. - Therefore Chris Compton were a real asset to this last Vugraph.

Quote from: luis on Today at 06:12:31pm
This is completely wrong, fix the contract in a thousand deals and with the same fixed defense a top player will produce a zillion more tricks per deal than you. Bridge is not only about systems and bidding, there's a lot of technique in the play, the defense and judgement and thats the area where top players distinct from the rest. This skills are mastered studying and practicing hard.
Even beginners can play a system as good as the one played by Meckwell, there's no skill in memorizing sequences.


Yes Luis - bridge is more than systems and bidding - but not much more. The rest is mechanical work. For me bridge is over when auction is over. Rest is technique and could be any cardgame.

Maybe you think no skill in memorizing. In your age I was able to remember danish phone books - but no longer. But the important is not to memorize a system but to compose it!
0

#14 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,178
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2003-November-17, 15:21

Comment 1: Over time, I think that most bidding systems have become much more "efficient". It would be interesting to see how a pair playing "The Official System", Vienna Club, or Vanderbilt Club would fare against a pair using any one of a variety of modern systems.

Comment 2: Over time, I think that the variance in the efficiency of popular bidding systems has diminished. I think that it is reasonable to claim that the Neopolitan Club was a better system than most of its contemporaries. Today, I think that the gap between Meckwell Precision and Bridge World Standard has narrowed significantly. [For what its worth, I don't think the Meckwell have a particular brilliant system. However, they do have a remarkably complete system which may be more important.]

Comment 3: People have known how to design bidding systems that a much better than anything in current use for 25+ years. The Strong Pass systems developed by the Poles and Kiwis are much stronger than current mainstream systems. However, the "powers that be" legislated these systems out of existence because they threatened more popular methods. [If you ever want an inteesting discussion talk to Paul Marston about why he stopped playing strong pass. I'm sure that the Passing Poles have some stories as well]

In short, while I basically agree with what Fred says, I think that he overstates his case somewhat.
Alderaan delenda est
0

#15 User is offline   fred 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,597
  • Joined: 2003-February-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, USA

Posted 2003-November-17, 15:57

Quote

Quote


Even at the highest levels, for every swing caused by differences in
bidding systems, there are 10 or more swings caused by careless
errors, blindspots, bad judgment, and just pure luck.



Very interesting - we never hear about such! I think good knowledge of the system concerned is needed to discover such. - Therefore Chris Compton were a real asset to this last Vugraph.

Just look at the .lin file for a random session from
the Bermuda Bowl. Look at how most of the swings
were caused.

Quote from: luis on Today at 06:12:31pm
This is completely wrong, fix the contract in a thousand deals and with the same fixed defense a top player will produce a zillion more tricks per deal than you. Bridge is not only about systems and bidding, there's a lot of technique in the play, the defense and judgement and thats the area where top players distinct from the rest. This skills are mastered studying and practicing hard.
Even beginners can play a system as good as the one played by Meckwell, there's no skill in memorizing sequences.


Yes Luis - bridge is more than systems and bidding - but not much more. The rest is mechanical work. For me bridge is over when auction is over. Rest is technique and could be any cardgame.

If you really think that than you are missing a lot in
my view. Listen more carefully to the commentators
other than Chris Compton (no offense to him intended).
You may learn that there is a lot more to the game
of bridge than you realize.



Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
0

#16 User is offline   DrTodd13 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,156
  • Joined: 2003-July-03
  • Location:Portland, Oregon

Posted 2003-November-17, 17:06

It seems like there is a small arms race when it comes to bidding
systems. At the highest levels, is there any sign that the level of
complexity is not gradually increasing? When you win the Bermuda
bowl by 1 IMP, you are probably happy for every gadget that you
had and used that gave you an advantage.

I saw many cases where a seemingly logical lead was disasterous
and let a game make that otherwise wouldn't. If we want a 99%
guarantee that the better team wins, how many boards do you
think they need to play? 128 seems too few based on my experience
with confidence intervals in technical papers.
0

#17 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,178
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2003-November-17, 17:37

Hi Todd

Back when I was doing serious statistics, most of the analysis that I saw assumed independence between observations. If we can assume that each board played is an independent sample, its relatively easy to calculate the number of boards necessary to produce the desired confidence interval. [We'd need to make a couple assumptions regarding the relative skill of the two teams, but the problem itself is tractable]

Unfortunately, I think that board results are strongly autocorrelated. If I believe that I am behind in a match I am going to alter my strategy and try to generate swings. Its been a while, but I don't recall any "simple"methods for calcuating confidence intervals for autocorrelated samples.
Alderaan delenda est
0

#18 User is offline   DrTodd13 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,156
  • Joined: 2003-July-03
  • Location:Portland, Oregon

Posted 2003-November-17, 19:34

Like you mention, you need to make assumptions about the relative skill
of the two teams. I'm not exactly sure how this is a tractable problem.
I don't know what the units of measurement of skill level would be. Maybe
we could assume that they are the two best teams in the world and figure
out how many other teams in the world each could beat. Take the # of
bridge players in the world, divide by 6 giving the number of bridge teams
in the world, X. Then, one of the last two teams could beat X-1 teams
(you can't beat yourself unless you're really kinky) and the other X-2 teams
(being worse than only one other team). The difference between these
teams would be 1/X. Let's give X a tentative value of 50,000. Anybody
with some spare time want to compute the 95 and 99% confidence intervals
using my assumptions?

I do agree though that knowing the number of boards does lead to SOTM
actions. These just complicate matters. Personally, I'm not confident
saying either of these teams is better when the lead changed hands
several times with a final result of 1IMP difference. It might be interesting
to play the final until one team was up a certain number of IMPs rather
than a fixed number of boards. That sucks for the tournament organizers
and everyone having to make travel plans but it would certainly be
exciting.

Another option would be to designate certain events as special and then
have a formula for each team's performance for those special events over
an entire year. Off the top of my head, something like the CART, Indy, or
Nascar season championships.
0

#19 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,178
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2003-November-17, 20:38

You need to define a relationship between the sample and what you are sampling.

Case in point: I would argue that the most logical sample is a single board in a team event.

In this case, you are measuring the the number of IMPs that changed hands.

I think that it is dangerous to use this data predict how well a team would preform against other teams. This requires some transitivity assumptions that don't necessarily hold true.
Alderaan delenda est
0

#20 User is offline   Erkson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 258
  • Joined: 2003-May-24

Posted 2003-November-17, 23:37

Quote

...
Even at the highest levels, for every swing caused by differences in
bidding systems, there are 10 or more swings caused by careless
errors, blindspots, bad judgment, and just pure luck.
...


I agree, and I didn't mean that most of the swings are caused by differences in bidding SYSTEMS.

IMO most of the swings are caused by differences in bidding, whatever is the system.
Watching those high level matches confimed to me that at the end of the auction phase a board is won or lost in a much higher number of cases than in the play or defense phase : they didn't call game, or they called game and will be down, they didn't double, or they doubled, they missed the slam etc...
-------------------------------------------

csdnmark wrote :
"Yes Luis - bridge is more than systems and bidding - but not much more. The rest is mechanical work. For me bridge is over when auction is over. Rest is technique and could be any cardgame."


Although this affirmation seems to me exagerated, I tend to agree because it rightly emphasizes the weight of bidding in the final result of a match.

Erkson
0

Share this topic:


  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users