[hrothgar]

kgr, on Jun 2 2006, 12:53 AM, said:

I opened 1S. The partner of the good player with who I had a discussion at the bar also opened 1S.
My opinion was that I should have opened 1C, but she diagreed and told me I should bid my 5 card M.
At our table opps remained silent and the bidding continued:
1S-2D
Suppose you were forced to bid 1S. What do you bid now and is 3C 100% forcing? Is 3C reverse? (At the bar we also didn't agree about this.). If you choose 3C, are you happy with it?

You've raises a number of complex issues, made more complicated by the fact that "expert standard" has changed dramatically over the years. For example, within the US there used to be quite a lot of debate about relative merits of opening 1♣ or 1♠ holding a 5-1-2-5 or 5-2-1-5 shape. More recently, folks seem to have settled on opening 1♠ with these hand patterns.

Associated with this, people used to refer to auctions like

1♠ - 2♦
3♣

as a high reverse. The high reverse promised extra values. Weaker hands would rebid 2♠ regardless of shape. These days folks seem to prefer to emphasize shape rather than strength.

In either case, a new suit introduced at the 3 level is forcing.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Jun 1 2006, 05:01 PM, said:

This last post really worries me.
1) Why does this player say you should open 1S? Should is a strong word!
2) I understand you are not sure if 1s=2d=3c is 100% forcing with silent opponents. This is a great question! Buy some basic bidding books and join BIL I think you will get a great deal out of it. They get these issues all the time! Bill Root has some truly wonderful books on good solid basic bidding.
3) I would stop stop taking any advice from anyplayer that says you Should or must open 1S on this hand. You can debate it, you can open 1S but saying you should or must is too strong and very wrong!

I am completely confused why you are so worried. "Should" is not a strong word, it's not even as strong a word as some you used, like "Wrong". The whole point of giving the problem to people is for them to say what they think the bidder "should" do.

3♣ on that auction is definitely forcing. The common and I believe correct way to play it is not necessarily promising the strength of a full reverse, but promising enough values to be game forcing opposite partner's 2/1. This hand is easily good enough with this shape, even though you will sometimes get too high on a misfit.

If you opened 1♣ then on the second round of that auction you have an easy 2♠ bid, also forcing. You fully expect to complete your shape with one more spade bid next round.

[kgr]

..about 3C forcing question: sorry. It's clear that 3C is forcing. Wanted to ask if it absolutly forces to game.

[jdonn]

kgr, on Jun 1 2006, 05:49 PM, said:

..about 3C forcing question: sorry. It's clear that 3C is forcing. Wanted to ask if it absolutly forces to game.

I answered that

[Codo]

whereagles, on Jun 2 2006, 01:00 AM, said:

mikeh, did you know that in French Standard (SEF)

1♣ 1♥
1♠ 2x
2♠

shows a black 55 with 15+? Did you also know that in SEF the 6♣5♠ hands are treated as a 55? In other words, in France everybody opens the original hand 1♠ (except for those who upgrade it to an intermediate hand and open 1♣).

So the French are bidding, to use your words, in a "remarkably stupid" way.

There are pros and cons for each choice of opening, but you seem to be seeing only pros in one opening and cons in another. Quite frankly, your attitude of intolerance towards a what is a perfectly reasonable and playable choice of opening borders on the ridicule. Or perhaps it just shows ignorance of how people play outside the world.. err.. north america.

I play SEF since some years and I never read any article, which said: "in SEF the 6♣5♠ hands are treated as a 55".

So I think, this is just your wish. But I am willing to learn, so proove me wrong and tell me, where I can find this idea about SEF writtten down.

[Codo]

kgr, on Jun 2 2006, 06:53 AM, said:

kgr, on May 31 2006, 01:40 AM, said:

AQTxx
75
Void
AQxxxx

I had a discussion with a good player at the club.
You play some kind of SAYC or SEF.
MP's, your are dealer. (Vul unknown)
What do you open?

I opened 1S. The partner of the good player with who I had a discussion at the bar also opened 1S.
My opinion was that I should have opened 1C, but she diagreed and told me I should bid my 5 card M.
At our table opps remained silent and the bidding continued:
1S-2D
Suppose you were forced to bid 1S. What do you bid now and is 3C 100% forcing? Is 3C reverse? (At the bar we also didn't agree about this.). If you choose 3C, are you happy with it?
==============
If you opened 1C then the bidding would go:
1C-(1H)-2D-(2H)
What do you bid now? (Please also answer the 1S-2D question as that was the issue I faced at the table.)

Thanks,
Koen

1. You can show your 5 card major in the bidding, but where is written dwon, that you need to do so with your first bid?

2. If you are not allow to bid new suits at the 3. level GF, you have too many problems, so 3 CLub will get a 100 % vote.

[whereagles]

Codo, on Jun 1 2006, 11:58 PM, said:

I play SEF since some years and I never read any article, which said: "in SEF the 6♣5♠ hands are treated as a 55".

So I think, this is just your wish. But I am willing to learn, so proove me wrong and tell me, where I can find this idea about SEF writtten down.

It's here:

http://perso.orange...._ouvertures.htm

(Suit symbols may vary with text enconding.)

The idea is to treat minimum 65s as 55s, and intermediate+ hands as strong enough to reverse.. So with 4 losers or less, open the longer, with 5 losers or more, open the highest-ranked suit. Kinda like the way you treat black 55s in SEF (which is the opposite of the north-american way, by the way).

The original hand, despite being a min, actually has only 4 losers, so a share of the field in France will indeed be opening 1♣ and later double-reversing.

There are some SEF variations on how to deal with 65s, though. Other french SEF theoreticians consider you should always open the longest suit, except if the 5 card suit is much stronger than the 6 carder, or if the high cards are scattered.

[FrancesHinden]

Certainly standard French opens 1C with 5-5 in the Blacks and a fair hand. So also do many fairly old-fashioned books on Acol, though this is less common nowadays.

However, I guess your French must be better than mine, because when I look at your reference and read

"Les 6/5, avec la 6ème moins chère que la 5ème, sont assimilés à des 5/5 s’ils sont de plus de 4 perdantes (donc ouverture de la plus chère), sinon on les annonce de façon chère (ouverture de la 6ème). Avec 6C et 5S, on ouvre de 1C, sauf si cette couleur est très faible."

My interpretation is

"With a 6/5 with the 6-card suit lower than the 5-card suit, treat it as a 5-5 if you have more than 4 losers (so open the higher suit), otherwise open the 6-card suit and reverse. With 6C and 5S open 1C unless the club suit is very weak"

That seems to say quite clearly that 5/6 in the blacks is systemically opened 1C on all strengths.

[FrancesHinden]

kgr, on Jun 1 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

kgr, on May 31 2006, 01:40 AM, said:

AQTxx
75
Void
AQxxxx

I had a discussion with a good player at the club.
You play some kind of SAYC or SEF.
MP's, your are dealer. (Vul unknown)
What do you open?

I opened 1S. The partner of the good player with who I had a discussion at the bar also opened 1S.
My opinion was that I should have opened 1C, but she diagreed and told me I should bid my 5 card M.
At our table opps remained silent and the bidding continued:
1S-2D
Suppose you were forced to bid 1S. What do you bid now and is 3C 100% forcing? Is 3C reverse? (At the bar we also didn't agree about this.). If you choose 3C, are you happy with it?
==============
If you opened 1C then the bidding would go:
1C-(1H)-2D-(2H)
What do you bid now? (Please also answer the 1S-2D question as that was the issue I faced at the table.)

Thanks,
Koen

If I were forced to open 1S, I would bid 3C now and be entirely happy with it (in the context of having sorted one of my clubs into the spade suit before opening and only just having found out).
It is absolutely basic bridge that 3C is 100% forcing.

Having opened 1C, I rebid 2S over 2H. If partner rebids a non-forcing (in standard) 3D I will continue the description and bid 3S, though this might turn out to be a horrible hand where no-one is making anything.

[whereagles]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 2 2006, 08:27 AM, said:

My interpretation is

"With a 6/5 with the 6-card suit lower than the 5-card suit, treat it as a 5-5 if you have more than 4 losers (so open the higher suit), otherwise open the 6-card suit and reverse. With 6C and 5S open 1C unless the club suit is very weak"

That seems to say quite clearly that 5/6 in the blacks is systemically opened 1C on all strengths.

You are right. I had missed the last sentence. I retract my statements for the black 65 case and apologize. I stand by my comments on other 65s though.

Another reference: http://membres.lycos.../cours/0001.htm
(Scroll down to "Les ouvertures ambigues".)

[FrancesHinden]

With a weak 5-6 in the reds, not strong enough to reverse, you'll find a lot (possibly the majority) of people even outside France opening 1H.

With a weak 5-6 in spades and diamonds, or a weak 5-6 in hearts and clubs, I would guess maybe 50% of people, maybe a bit less would open 1S.

With a weak 5-6 in the majors I have no idea what the majority would do (I'm not sure what I would open it until I saw the hand).

With a weak 5-6 in the minors I guess again the majority would open 1D.

With a weak 5-6 in the blacks the vast majority (99.9%) open 1C.

But I realise I have very little idea for the middle 3 what the majority of people would do at the table. Luckily I know what I and my regular partners do, because we've discussed it, but that's all.

[Walddk]

Sorry for being very late, but 1♣ followed by a couple of spade bids seems a prudent approach with this hand.

Now, so Koen opened 1♠ and is asking what to do over 2♦. You have no choice really: 3♣. The auction hasn't been very economical so far, but that can't be helped. I am happy to bid 3♣ even. Yes, it's forcing (even game forcing in my methods). A good rule is: new suit at the 3-level, by opener as well as responder, is game forcing.

You have a 4-loser hand. That should be plenty to force to game after a 2-o-1 response, even if 2♦ doesn't promise more than 9+ hcp. Sure, occasionally you have a serious misfit (partner is perhaps 2-4-6-1 or 1-5-6-1, ouch), but if you don't bid clubs and spades, or spades and clubs the way you did it, you may as well stop bidding.

I mean, no-one will tell her/himself before taking the first call: "I am sure partner has 65 in the red suits, so I'd better pass before we get overboard". That's not bridge.

Finally, if the bidding had gone

1♣ (1♥) 2♦ (2♥)
2♠

must be obvious to any expert in this world. The hand is much too good to pass, and if you rebid your clubs, you will never tell about your spade suit. Does 2♠ promise 5 spades? No, but my intention is to show the 5th on my next turn.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

After

1C (1H) P (2H)

you could consider bidding 3S. I wouldn't, because I think that shows a better hand, but it's a possible call.

I wouldn't bid 3S after
1C (1H) 2D (2H)

because partner might think it's a splinter (many people play that if a simple bid is forcing unnecessary jumps show shortage)

[whereagles]

Koen:

In SEF, if you have a weakish black 55, after 1♠ 2♦, the rebid is usually 2♠, intending to bid clubs to show 5 cards if pard bids 2NT. The 2♠ rebid is a catch-all, so it doesn't promise 6 spades. You might consider 2♠ here for this reason. But 3♣ is fine as well.

I know, americans might find these ideas wierd, but this time they are *not* mine

[Codo]

whereagles, on Jun 2 2006, 07:11 PM, said:

Koen:

In SEF, if you have a weakish black 55, after 1♠ 2♦, the rebid is usually 2♠, intending to bid clubs to show 5 cards if pard bids 2NT. The 2♠ rebid is a catch-all, so it doesn't promise 6 spades. You might consider 2♠ here for this reason. But 3♣ is fine as well.

I know, americans might find these ideas wierd, but this time they are *not* mine

As the black 5/5 hands are nearly always opened 1 Club in SEF, your statement is false. Just if you decide to use the clubs as too weak to mention, you must use your catch all bid after the 2/1 response. And that is 2 Spade in this case. (We agree on this...)

And for the site of M. Mathieu, as far as I know, he as a very respected player, but he is not the authority for the french school of Bridge, so I guess his opinion on his personal web-site does not need to show the official view on this theme.

But anyway, his opinion is shared among the most others, you just misred it.

[whereagles]

Codo, on Jun 2 2006, 11:53 AM, said:

1.
As the black 5/5 hands are nearly always opened 1 Club in SEF, your statement is false.

2.
But anyway, his [Mathieu] opinion is shared among the most others, you just misred it.

1. Which statement?

2. Excuse me? I didn't understand this. Can you be more specific?

[bid_em_up]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 2 2006, 03:50 AM, said:

With a weak 5-6 in the majors I have no idea what the majority would do (I'm not sure what I would open it until I saw the hand).

Here ya go: From live tourny this past weekend

1st seat nobody vul

---

If its of any importance, I opened 1♥ but wasnt all that thrilled about it, as the auction quickly spiralled out of hand.

1♥-2♦-2♠-3♣-3♠-6♠

gulp.

[luke warm]

cardsharp, on May 31 2006, 10:55 AM, said:

The strong clubbers seem happy to open this hand with 1♠, perhaps because they never regard the club suit as something they need to bid. I often wonder how extreme we have to make the hand to get them to show it (5-0-0-8 perhaps?)

that's why it's a 2♠ opener for me (5+ spades, 4+ clubs)

[mike777]

bid_em_up, on Jun 2 2006, 10:10 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jun 2 2006, 03:50 AM, said:

With a weak 5-6 in the majors I have no idea what the majority would do (I'm not sure what I would open it until I saw the hand).

Here ya go: From live tourny this past weekend

1st seat nobody vul

---

If its of any importance, I opened 1♥ but wasnt all that thrilled about it, as the auction quickly spiralled out of hand.

1♥-2♦-2♠-3♣-3♠-6♠

gulp.

Again using Blackwood is not evil, one does not have to only cuebid or just bid slam

Your auction through 3s was fine..... I could have so much less than this

[kgr]

Walddk, on Jun 2 2006, 11:01 AM, said:

... but if you don't bid clubs and spades, or spades and clubs the way you did it, you may as well stop bidding....

First of all: I tend to post hands that I feel I really did bid wrong and then hope I'll never forget.
The bidding was:
1S-2D-2NT all pass
I did hold this hand, opened 1S and rebid 2NT (we don't play this forcing, so don't blame my partner).

Void
98xx
AQxxx
KJxx

AQTxx
75
Void
AQxxxx